Podcast

Kevin Mooney (00:08.28)
But, thank you again for, coming back. Our last conversation went bananas. Like it went out there, man. And, I appreciate it. And I think what happened in that was

your thoughts were so deep and wide that I almost couldn't anchor myself in something. So that's kind of the reason that I wanted you to come back. And it also sounds like you had a few things that you got from our previous conversation. So that's really where I want to take this one is anchoring into some of those.

José Caballer (01:02.23)
Thank you for having me back. like I was saying there in my crazy intro, I'm pretty honored.

Kevin Mooney (01:08.344)
Yeah, that's awesome. I appreciate it. One of the things that we talked about in the last conversation was burnout. what you had said afterwards was, you know, I have my own form of that. I had a breakdown and you wanted to share that. And that I believe will kind of kick us off into some of the other topics that we want to get into.

Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like what was your experience? What happened? You know, what did you feel? All of those things.

José Caballer (01:49.438)
spot we're starting we're we're starting no you know what no no no fuck it we're starting with this and i'm gonna go

Kevin Mooney (01:50.414)
Is that too much to start with?

José Caballer (01:59.52)
I was in New York City working at Consensus which is a blockchain company. I didn't need to go there. I went because I thought, my god, let's get crypto rich. Really, but also mainly because I saw an opportunity to learn, and I was invited there by a very powerful and great friend who was not my coach actually.

That, as a caveat, a lot of people kind of broke down. It really hurt a lot of people, the way that company was. was started, no judgment to them. But for me, think of me as a country bumpkin, Puerto Rican kid, son of a pastor who, let me start this thing, the school, and whatever, and then whatever it is, and then I started making money.

I went there right after I left the school or after I left LA and the burnout part, like to quote my therapist was simple. It was, wait, hold on. This is him talking. You're working full time at this job where you have a big leadership role. You are trying to build this community.

you're building a Burning Man camp and are about to go to it. And then you're also like, at the time, like, you know, whenever doing, hosting these parties in your space, like almost like a club. They were amazing, to be clear.

Kevin Mooney (03:42.668)
I bet.

José Caballer (03:47.306)
And then he goes, and you wonder why you're like burning out? You know, like, are you crazy? And one of the things about, now I know about being a manifest generator, which in Spanish would be a loco chon, which means loco means crazy. Chon is like a, lechon is a pig, loco chon is like your pig in mud, crazy.

The thing that ended up happening is that on top of that, by having moved back into New York, I had completely gotten off all my ADHD medications, which are mainly kind of like stimulants and mood stabilizers, which are horrible. hate them.

Kevin Mooney (04:31.96)
Yeah.

José Caballer (04:32.322)
So I got off of them and here I am free balling in New York City, which is a huge amount of input in Brooklyn. So I set it up. I set it up for myself. And we had two weeks to Burning Man and I was designing the camp and I had my friend from Venice there with me who's a mad man.

José Caballer (04:57.356)
But I had recently started taking the medication again.

But at one point, it's like kernel panic. I just like, I couldn't take that amount of input. I just popped. And the way it felt, know, like a lot of the first few days, by the way, to be clear, there is clinical definitions for this. I'm not going to use them. I'll call it accelerated mediumship. I'm downloading this old story.

Kevin Mooney (05:10.158)
just popped. Yeah.

José Caballer (05:31.138)
And the gist of the story is that we were in a game and it was about mobile and likes. And like I walked into the park and I could see the kids on their phones everywhere I went and Brooklyn people were on their phones. And the name of the game was like to get more well known. Keep in mind, that's also the goal of Burning Man as a game. You're building a camp so that you can invite more people to your club and you you get more influences. Burning Man's a video game, right? So.

Kevin Mooney (05:52.366)
Yeah, yeah.

José Caballer (06:02.176)
And then there are psychedelics, right? Ayahuasca. So I start taking my meds again. I've been doing psychedelics and I'm super overextending my processor. And I go into these three-day accelerated media internship where I'm like, fuck, this is how the game works. And it's stuff that you've heard us talk about, the infinite game.

People talk about simulation theory. People talk about all these things. For those three days, I was like, I understand the simulation. And we can actually control it. But you have to speak a certain way. You have to be very clear that you're... It was, let's call it, loco-chono. It was pretty crazy. But by the end of it, I just... I thought I was gonna die. was like, you know, was like a... And I ended up...

Kevin Mooney (06:41.579)
Sure Sure Sure

José Caballer (06:53.664)
doing something that I don't know how I knew how to do. I put myself in a, I lived in an industrial space and I filled it up with ice and I put myself in it and that kind of shocks your system. it shocked your system. And I called my friend, Jeff Silva, who's an amazing man and a brother.

Kevin Mooney (07:04.929)
Woke ya up? Well...

José Caballer (07:15.84)
like, hey man, you know, what's happening? He said, I'll come pick you up. He picked me up, spent some time at his house and said, you know, just for safety, go to the hospital. so he took me to the Brooklyn hospital there, the emergency room. Or actually, no, I went in an ambulance.

And the guy asked me very straight up questions like, do you know who you are? Yeah. I was super lucid. I was like, oh yeah. I was in control completely. But what the reality was happening, like, okay, I'm going to the hospital, et cetera, et cetera.

José Caballer (07:53.41)
was a whole kind of other construct, right? I had gotten rid of my phone so people couldn't find me for three days. So a whole group of my friends were like worried where it works. Where's Jose when you don't reach back or when you get called? And there's a lot of shame associated. At the hospital, they basically kept me for 24 hours till the next morning. I didn't have any shoes, so they gave me a pair of shoes. I walked back to Brooklyn.

Here's the irony, I was supposed to be at an ayahuasca ceremony that weekend and I talked to my friend who was the shaman and she said, you know, I looked for you during the ceremony and you were, you had disappeared, which either means you died or you were somewhere else. And I'm like, wow, that's crazy. And I have never told that story in public to anybody. I have written part of it down, but

Kevin Mooney (08:40.898)
Right.

José Caballer (08:52.47)
The whole like, shit, it's a game. You mentioned this in our pre-conversation and it's about kind of whatever you want to call it, resonance. And what was at the end was this like spiral of, if you're familiar with spiral dynamics and Ken Wilber, it was a spiral of kind of ascension that.

also married the temple at Burning Man that year. But everyone in the game was lining up that had passed all the levels was lining up to go on that spiral. And we were all dressed in white, which is Thursdays at Burning Man, you're dressed in white. And I'm the son of a Seventh-day Adventist pastor. So that's the narrative too. So I'm like, holy shit, I spent three days in that narrative, super conscious that I was in that narrative. But then when I wanted to get out of it, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna dunk myself in some ice.

Kevin Mooney (09:35.0)
There you go.

José Caballer (09:47.08)
and I went to the hospital just to make sure. And you know, to be honest, like, I have never left it. Like, what I mean by that is everything I got out of that journey, I'm like, that is the reality that we're in. So.

Kevin Mooney (09:55.692)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (10:03.81)
Yeah. I mean, you can think about that. Like this was some psychedelic trip or something, right? Or it could just be this awakening to what is reality. And then that's the piece that stuck at the end of the day. And, and yeah, I mean, I've had those thoughts with and without psychedelics. I'm curious in this situation, like what came first?

that kind of caused the break in your opinion. You know, was it, was it the workload? Was it the stress? Was it the environment? Was it all of that with the psychedelics? You know what, you know, I look at, I look at the thing that I talked about in the last show, low testosterone. Well, that, that didn't just come out of nowhere. My body wasn't just like, Hey, we're going to tank. Like that came from stress.

And so that was the thing that caused me to have that, that burnout. And certainly the work part of it was there, right? I was burning out from that, but it was the stress on top of it that caused everything for all the dominoes to fall. So I'm kind of asking the same question in your opinion. What do you think was going on there?

José Caballer (11:28.77)
I'd like to think that the universe is my friend, right? That there is a co-creation that's happening. And I was sitting in Brooklyn in my loft with big boards and trying to design the system that we were using inside our camp and working with my friend who was a transformational coach. So I'm really working really hard to figure out the inside. And the universe goes, you wanna know? You wanna know how it works? Here you go. I'll show you how it goes, motherfucker. And I'm like, whoa!

Kevin Mooney (11:54.134)
I'll show ya, yeah.

José Caballer (11:58.774)
And then the second thing was...

There was this really critical lesson and it was kind of like the first, my first ayahuasca ceremony, the shaman told me the same thing, which is, relax, relax. This is for you. And I'm a Taurus, Capricorn, ascendant, like Scorpio Moon. That's a fucking intense person. So.

It was knocking me out. It was just knocking me down physically because after that, man, I was like super slow and old man mode. And that's how I passed the whole burn. I worked in the kitchen. I just talked to people. was lovey-dovey. People are like, we love this guy, you know, because I was so chill, right? And one of the things that I had to do is that, shit, let me just listen to what people are saying and only speak what they need to know, not the whole rabbit hole.

Kevin Mooney (12:37.774)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (12:57.474)
because I hope that they don't know that I'm going through this. So people were coming to my loft asking me for opinions and things. Here's the project manager. You're doing a great job. Yep, that's what we're doing. We did index cards. I was doing agile planning for the camp, designing the camp, all that stuff in that three day download episode, right? So I had to stay extremely present to make sure people didn't know that I was actually in this magical reality.

The last part of that, which is not related to the story, but it's a bonus. In this kind of like, it's been reported that you're able to create, you know, inside of it, right? So I'm walking back and I didn't have sneakers, but they gave me some and I didn't have any money nor a phone. I have to get back on a train in Brooklyn. So like, how the heck do you do this? And so, but I'm like glowing. I'm like, I'm really thirsty. Boom.

15 yards ahead, like on a ledge of a building that was closed, right? It was empty. My favorite bottled water, a nice big bottle. And I'm like, cool, this is like a video game. And then I'm like, I need to get home on the train. I don't even have my keys. I don't know what direction it is because I don't have my phone. Boom, I got to the corner. I asked the person I talked, hey, you know.

Kevin Mooney (14:04.248)
Wow.

Kevin Mooney (14:14.754)
Right.

José Caballer (14:20.642)
I was wondering, how do I get to, oh, you know what, you're not that far. Just take this avenue down and you'll get there. And I went, okay, cool. And I did, and I got to the place area and now I knew where I was and I went, and then I walked into the building because the neighbor was there and I'm like, hey, sorry, I left my keys. And there was a window that was open by the kitchen and I just jumped in and went to sleep.

Kevin Mooney (14:42.926)
crazy. That's a wild trip, man. I will first say I appreciate you sharing that I know that that can be super vulnerable to share those types of things. And it's, I don't know, I think it's probably part of the process to say those things out loud. And to be like, Yeah, I went through this. This is what happened. Because we're not all invincible. That's, we're humans. That's just how it is.

You know, comes, life comes, psychedelics come, and shit just gets weird and wild.

José Caballer (15:18.858)
Yeah, and letting go of it, the shame, it's really important.

Kevin Mooney (15:19.79)
Kevin Mooney (15:24.524)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel the same way about mine and mine's a completely different story. Right. And I felt very shameful about my situation too. And it's like, no, I think the way for me to get past it is to talk about it. but you mentioned, you mentioned a coach multiple times in that, that segment there. And I'm curious, a has the coach stayed the same through that entire process? And then.

You know what has that process been like since maybe since the break? Let's say it like that. Like what does it look like with that person going beyond that that moment?

José Caballer (16:07.126)
The coach was recently...

José Caballer (16:12.778)
I think post the break, you know, I...

José Caballer (16:19.178)
I still didn't like heed the lesson. So I still kind of like pushed the boundaries.

And know, can either say the universe is your friend or the universe is a total asshole. Um, when it needs to be right when it needs to be. So, so talking about the coach that started about two years ago, a year and a half ago. And, um, it kind of like map to the, okay, I don't have, what are the mistakes that, that I kept on making? Uh,

that went against my type is that if I'm not, it's a yes, like a hell yes, a guttural yes, it's a no. And then if I do something against my own, like, know, gut, let's call it.

It's really like not a good thing in general for myself. It's not aligned. It's not congruent. It's not, you know, a core finance. Um, and I did it out of fear. did it. Like one example was, it's like, I said, all right, let's start again. And I'm doing core workshops. sold a workshop in the Midwest. It was awesome. It was like 8,000, $7,000. Like this is it. This is business. I'm going to do core 3.0 core 2.0 at that time. Uh, and then I got a call from someone, Hey, you do you want to come be chief?

brand officer, here's the thing I'm doing and they pitched me. Somebody I worked with in the past. I said no, right away. I said no, thanks. And then kept on going to my excitement. But then at the time my accountant who was you know, younger and like clearly obviously this is an opportunity, the cash flow is kind of slowing down. So unless you really build this business, you're going to have to figure something out. And I'm like, okay, fine. And because of the relationship to

José Caballer (18:15.908)
to that and pleasing that person out of whatever fear, you know, I actually, or I also questioned myself, is that maybe this person is right. I went and I ended up, you know, loving the CEO. She was really great. The company was in a wellness space. I've never been chief brand officer. Maybe I get to try out all this stuff that I know.

And the truth is that again, as a manifesting generator that's, you know, very gut based, the minute I commit to something, you have to commit to it like full fucking on. I couldn't do anything. I couldn't keep on doing courses. I couldn't keep on doing, you know, trying to build, you know, what I had started in 2014 or 12, whenever it was. And again, it's not that I regret the project. I learned a lot. And you asked me kind of that question. What did I understand?

But I was going against my own, so the whole time I was there, like I would end the day, you know, it's 9 to 5, right? They let me promptly at 5. I tried to stay late, but nobody was staying late, so I went okay. And I went to Oakland where I was living.

And I sat in the back of the fucking like house I was renting, which was a little, you know, witch's house, you know, with very, very cute. It was actually the death doula of my shaman who was actually passing away in Mexico during that time. Ironically, her name is Joy. And I would sit there like in existential ask what angst, what the fuck am I doing? Like I'm smoking a cigarette. What am I doing? What am I doing? Every night, every night I would come back and ask myself that question.

And that's fucking torture for somebody like me because I find something exciting and I go do it. I'm to do it. And then, you know, start making money. Great. But working for a company has I've never done it other than once at Racerfish.

José Caballer (20:11.924)
I compromised and I did it. Right. the other time I had done it was when I was at consensus and I'd learned a shit ton of stuff, but I felt the same way. You know, I quit after three months, but then somebody cried. felt bad. like, I don't want to leave that person. Like, you know, I'm, I'm, I am reliving my trauma, which is my mom dies at 12. I have to take care of my brothers. My dad abandoned this emotionally. Okay. Everywhere I go where I work for a company, the team becomes the thing I need to take care of because you know what corporate or tongue is a mess. Right.

It's a shit show. And me being the older brother, I want to protect them. So I immediately take a counter position to the executive team. But I'm such a people pleaser that I can't voice it. So I'm undermining them privately, not by gossiping or by doing anything like that, by it's basically the rebellion against the system. I'm basically.

Kevin Mooney (20:43.383)
Yeah.

José Caballer (21:06.912)
doing the things I did as a kid with my brothers. And you asked me about my coach. The coach, the work we've been doing is little Jose. So you're basically slowing down, processing everything through the child to ensure that it's safe. And over time, create this practice of presence to where you, the adult.

are containing the inner child, which gives you fear, which gives you anxiety, which gives you doubt because the adult doesn't know or believe that they can take care of a kid until you have kids and then you need to process that in real time for the kids. That's a different level of the video game that I haven't had to deal with. I'm doing it with a coach and that over and over again of reparenting yourself and of understanding you're safe.

Kevin Mooney (21:47.214)
Yeah, yeah, it's a real thing.

José Caballer (21:59.904)
You have agency. here are the 10 things that he wrote for me. I did a session for like a week at his house in Austin. Put yourself first. Plan for a long and fruitful life. Zero negotiation about your morning practice, exercise, walk, whatever it is, journaling.

Be discerning and be very selective. Establish boundaries early and often. And the caveat to that is, and reestablish them if they broke and you need to do it, or if you broke them. Be very mindful not to overcommit. I'm very good at that. No price is worth your health, happiness, and well-being. Develop a practice of personal accountability to self first, always. Don't be accountable to other people until you're accountable to yourself, which I always

would say like, what do I want to do that? I don't want to do that. But you know what? I'm beholden to this person. So I would say yes, right. So to yourself first and then to others. Learn to say no.

Not now. I can't afford it. I can't afford to do that right now and practice forgiveness and surrender That's 10 11 and 12 11 is very personal is to shift the story They felt care and concern not pity and this was like when you know I told them the story that when my mom died the ladies the doñas in the neighborhood

could hear them under their breath saying, pobrecitos, they're orphans now.

Kevin Mooney (23:36.639)
man.

José Caballer (23:37.888)
Bitch, I my dad still and my grandma is like, I'm not an orphan, I'm gonna be okay. But that little boy proving to everybody that they're okay becomes the man who overcommit, overextends, and is the hero always, and is always saving his mom and his family. And that narrative will kill you, literally and figuratively. So the last one is we're all doing our best. We can, so don't, don't, don't, don't beat yourself up.

Kevin Mooney (23:39.789)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (23:56.086)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (24:06.552)
Yeah. What, any, are the hardest to put into practice still after all this work that you've put in?

José Caballer (24:19.234)
I mean, I'll be really honest, go right as we speak, I'm over committed to a bunch of projects that aren't big enough, that aren't big enough. I'm still trying to like, you know, build the community and stay engaged in that. I still need to sleep. I'm in the middle of moving in a new relationship, in a new country. So the question is that have I not learned my lesson or am I a

Kevin Mooney (24:24.406)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (24:46.663)
Yeah.

José Caballer (24:47.85)
A glutton for punishment. But the truth is that every single one of those things, putting them in place and reminding myself every day, it's like a video game, right? Next level, next level. it's like every day a little bit more. here's, I'm not answering your question per se because there's a bunch of them that are difficult. But because I'm so present and they're printed out and right in front of my laptop and underneath it is uncomfortable.

Kevin Mooney (24:58.883)
Yeah.

José Caballer (25:18.11)
in an index card and underneath that index card it says, I command reality, which is from my experience, Reality is not happening to you, you're creating it or co-creating it. And I choose to be happy, it's the last one. So that's the, because I could go into like, if the narrative, which I learned a lot from my dad, because in Latino culture that gossip is like, or like that.

Like, this is going wrong, this is going wrong. And then that's a story that you hear over and over again. You kind of create that, right? So over and over again, I've been learning and the universe puts me with people that like, no, your words, you have to be kind of congruent to what you're saying. so the put yourself first.

which has been hard, it's the one that I'm working on most. And the hardest part is that morning practice negotiation, even though I totally like, get up and I go do it. And the new building that we're moving to has a gym, you know, continuing that kind of like, okay. And has friends that live close by, like, oh, hey, there's a gym right there, let's actually do it together, because community for me.

kind of helps. So yeah, that's kind of it. I hope that answers.

Kevin Mooney (26:41.206)
Yeah, it's a big deal.

Kevin Mooney (26:46.008)
Does all of that stuff play into the core purpose of the system and building that community? And is it part, you know, not necessarily to offload work or responsibility or anything like that, but is it, is it to have those? don't know. How do I want to say this?

I don't know, just to have those people around you so that it maybe feels like it is speaking to little Jose.

José Caballer (27:22.252)
So you don't feel alone, right?

Kevin Mooney (27:23.937)
Yeah.

José Caballer (27:30.611)
I

José Caballer (27:39.294)
So I'll start with core and with my core.

José Caballer (27:46.144)
that accelerated mediumship download three days in Brooklyn.

kind of

gave me a view of the system from the point of view of like, you know, what the levels are, but also how you engage in it. I learned, my human design is that I really learned by doing it and knocking myself against, you know, the wall. So in you and in every member of the community,

I see myself and I see what I'm, it's like having kids, right? So you're seeing it, right? And I'm able to share my story so that it can impact someone. And then at the same time, because I'm still doing client work.

because of those choices I've made and I'm like, fuck, I didn't want to be in this situation. I wanted to continue building course and like, know, revenue, which is substantial revenue from that. Everyone wants to be a content creator because it looks so easy, right? And it feels so good not to have to work for clients, right? And then I asked myself the question, you know, then why do I keep on saying yes and falling into these things? And I said, okay, surrender to it.

Kevin Mooney (28:59.758)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (29:15.69)
and consider that what the universe is asking you is to learn how to set boundaries, how to develop accountability. The things that you're still developing, you will develop in those projects. So.

José Caballer (29:37.322)
I've come to accept it. And then I said, OK, if I have this vision of which I don't even know at this stage, if I'm driving the vision or the community and the universe is driving the vision and all I have is these core principles and tools. So, yeah, this is actually over the last six months, over the last three months, actually, even more recently.

I said, you know what, just take it one day at a time, but surrender to the fact that you have to figure out how those things weave together. So I'll give you a very concrete example.

José Caballer (30:23.222)
This project comes up in the context of a documentary film because one of the things that I am is a closeted film director and I want to figure out how to produce and direct films. But I haven't gone to film school. I'm in a community here of creative people. Many of them are filmmakers.

This project, one of the programs, is to do entrepreneurial education and e-commerce education for Indigenous youth.

and set up a system where all of the artisanal, which I like to call like ritual art, this community, this tribe, which is here in Panama and in Columbia. But this particular one, have the goal is to help set that up. And I spent time there and I work with the youth. And I'm like, it's like what I did, you know, with setting up education online before. Now I'm doing it with an Indigenous community.

Kevin Mooney (31:09.806)
Ahem.

José Caballer (31:25.404)
And the people on the board are film producers, producers, directors, you know, and the networks and the connection that are happening. I'm like, right. So it dovetails back then to the story, to the last ayahuasca ceremony that I did, which the last thing I saw, actually the first one and the last one, which what I saw was the face of this brown woman with long.

hair, clearly an Indigenous woman of Latin America.

José Caballer (31:59.594)
And I kept on seeing that in meditations and, you know, ceremony. And my last burn that I went to, lot of breakdowns, clearly I was done, right? I didn't need to be there anymore. And what I ended up doing usually is just sabotaging it, which is a good way to exit. But it's a bit dramatic and conflicting because you look like an asshole.

Kevin Mooney (32:20.718)
Sure.

José Caballer (32:28.95)
Learning that how to control the burn is important or like the demolition control demolition or just say no and opt out Better I'll end it here the last thing I when I went out that last Wednesday, I think I'm looking at all of it and I'm like This is just a bunch of white people pretending to be tribal

Kevin Mooney (32:36.567)
Yeah.

José Caballer (32:54.142)
Like what the fuck where the fuck are the real people like of the americas i'm like we gotta bring like latamera latamerica to burning man is expensive and you know you need an rv and like whatever and part of that was because the djs were hybrid they were young people from one of them was from miami and you discover all the new trends even though this was in 2020 or 2021

Kevin Mooney (32:56.91)
You

José Caballer (33:18.146)
and it's like that Nicola Cruz and El Buo and like that electronic music that sounds like an ayahuasca ceremony because that was happening. It was the hybrid of like, and it was being created in Berlin. So I'm hearing that and one of the songs is like the jungle calling its children back and the words are that, like to come back.

to the earth. And I'm like, fuck. So I end up in Latin America, working with an indigenous tribe, helping them reclaim their culture through e-commerce and design. Was it the jungle called me back or a Uwaska called me back? I have no fucking idea, but here I am.

Kevin Mooney (33:55.416)
Whoa.

Kevin Mooney (34:00.899)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (34:04.43)
But here you are, and do you think there's any opportunity for your film career?

José Caballer (34:10.946)
Oh, I'm doing a film already. I've already started developing it. It's called Kara Kara 442, which is a play on THX, the first movie by George Lucas. Yeah, but it's an indigenous. It's basically the system, everything about the system in an indigenous Afro Latino Chinese and Spanish kind of.

Kevin Mooney (34:12.373)
hell yeah.

José Caballer (34:39.594)
evil flaky dork and noxious kind of thing.

Kevin Mooney (34:42.446)
And that's probably the one that gives you the most energy of all of the things that you're doing.

So why not shut everything else off and shut it all down and pursue that? Is that, is it just not feasible from that we have to eat and drink and have shelter standpoint?

José Caballer (35:11.382)
really good question.

José Caballer (35:16.988)
I'm a firm believer in...

José Caballer (35:25.92)
The 10 year like, you know, nine years just closed. The apartment that we're moving out of is apartment 9B. And we're moving into 22C in another building in another neighborhood. Super cute. Two and two is four, which is the square around the circle, right? Triangle then goes next in Alchemy.

one step at a time and a lot of lessons are happening and all of that is happening. But first is setting up your, your life, what you, what you want, the day to day rituals. Like if I do a film, that's, yes, that you could just shut everything down and focus on that. That's definitely a, an option.

Kevin Mooney (36:20.256)
It's something that I, I mean, I went through it, right? When my daughter was born, the same time that my daughter was born, the agency was dissolved. And so I was looking at that time period like, hey, this is the great reset, right? This is your opportunity to figure out what you want to do, where you want to take this. Who do you want to be in this world? What makes you feel good?

What gives you that full body? Yes. That you're talking about and in true kev fashion, it didn't become clear in that year period. And so the following year I went right back to all this shit that I'm doing now, which has the same shit problems before. You know, now you throw in the, the, the content creator stuff that I'm attempting to do. And it's this whole other layer and it's exciting.

Because I'm learning and I'm, I'm the happiest when I am learning. And so just like you banging my head against the wall, running up against all these problems, learning, figuring it out, doing that, that is fun and exciting, but at the same time I'm still in the same hamster wheel, still that same lost soul swimming in a fish bowl year after year doing that stuff. and I've had those thoughts like, why don't I just

leave all of this behind and find that one thing. But again, like I was saying, that has to be super clear for me to commit to that. And it still just hasn't become clear to me. So I'm still going through the motion, still doing what I'm doing. I can still be excited about projects that I'm working on. I can still be excited about the content that I'm, I'm putting out there in the world, but it doesn't really, you know, feed my soul.

I'll tell you what does feel really, really good. It is exactly what we're doing right here. My wife asked me if I'm still podcasting and I said, yeah, I'm still doing it. I'm just in this little room doing it. And she asked, does it make you happy? And I said, it makes me the most happy because I get to talk to people. I get to learn about them. get their perspectives.

José Caballer (38:30.37)
Thank

Kevin Mooney (38:47.362)
I think the hardest part is like, how do you promote that now so that it actually provides food and shelter and all those things for you? And I don't know that there's an answer. I really don't. I know that I want to keep going because I love it. I love talking. I love listening. I learn by listening to your stories and other people's stories. I get new perspectives every day. You know, you come across the, the occasional person that just reads the script that they have in their head.

about whatever it is they're doing. And I was hoping for the deeper conversation. I was hoping for that vulnerable moment to come out so that we can, you know, find some common ground in this weird, crazy world that we live in. And, and I don't know, I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'm just sharing the side of authority.

José Caballer (39:37.89)
No, you're 100 % right. This is for your wife.

José Caballer (39:46.254)
I've sacrificed a lot of what you would consider what I should be doing to do what I've been doing. When I closed my agency, I went from hundreds of thousands of dollars to zero really quickly. And then I found a space, somebody, an entrepreneur that would host me for free, that also I do a student show on their network.

So I didn't have to produce it. just showed up and did the camera. The producer of that show is still in our community and he went on to become the education director or one of the lead guys for Motionographer, which is like the future of motion graphics and for technical stuff. We moved out of our very expensive loft.

downtown LA and moved in with my mother-in-law at the time and then I managed to ruin that because I was coaching her and telling her, the fuck, why don't you guys get some therapy? She was very offended because, you know, people do not do therapy. And she kicked me out, she kicked us out. I'm like, fuck, now we gotta get another place. I called my best friend, like, dude, you know, I need cash, know, to pay the bills and he's like...

Kevin Mooney (40:53.23)
Sure.

José Caballer (41:07.33)
What do you have on your computer that you can sell? I'm like, a bunch of proposals of stylescapes, a bunch of project stuff. Put it together and sell it. So I did. I put together a whole process, you know, the school OS and, you know, before CORE was even a name, stylescapes, et cetera. And I launched a, from my podcast six months after starting it.

I launched the school, And it was then to make money, said, okay, free webinar. I skimmed Lewis Howe's book on how to do webinars. I sent out the email to my mailing list and 20 people showed up. I said at the end for the weekend only, this $1,500, like, you know, here's the list of the stuff. It's 900 bucks.

three people bought it. was like three and a half grand or something like that, three grand, whatever it was. And I'm like, fuck, this works great. And from there, like one of the guys who was a member who signed up out of the five people who signed up for the, because I didn't have the actual thing, I had to deliver it. So I said, I'm going to deliver it on the school's.

Kevin Mooney (42:09.87)
Ha

José Caballer (42:23.202)
met for members, I'm going to deliver the lesson recorded. And that became the content for the kit that was delivered a month later. I told people it's going to drop in 30 days, but you know why they believed me? Because they watch my podcast. They watch my show and I had given them so much value, like for free that they were like, sure, you know, we'll give you. There's a person who bought the kit like four times because they're a friend of mine in New York, just to support me.

Kevin Mooney (42:51.31)
wow.

José Caballer (42:53.186)
through the transition. So okay, now there was a little bit of cash happening. And then one of the guys in the pro group in the membership group was a successful entrepreneur in Portland, Oregon. So that's why you know Bent so well.

Kevin Mooney (42:55.086)
That's awesome.

José Caballer (43:08.002)
who needed help launching his startup and it was called Scratch It, it was a silly idea. He watched my show, This Week in Web Design and This Week in Startups on that network and he's like, I don't know, I'm a country bumpkin, does this script sound familiar? But I sold a successful tennis coaching academy, I wanna do this thing, you're the guy, you know how to do it, I'm not sure. So he flew me up to Portland and paid me three grand every week that I was up there.

Kevin Mooney (43:19.852)
Yeah.

José Caballer (43:37.324)
to help him launch his startup, so that's a little bit of money. And I brought my intern, who I met at a conference that I was doing, who is now the head of Rivian UX. So the impact that you have as you do this crazy Kevin Munish shit, when you do it with no doubt, with no doubt and no fear, though your wife is gonna be asking you, hi honey, are you still making trains in the basement?

Kevin Mooney (44:01.496)
Yeah.

José Caballer (44:05.762)
You have to do it with the commitment and the belief that it is. And you're obnoxious evil. So your challenge, again, respectfully, is believing. If you were evil dorky, it would be worse because you really don't believe until you see it. And you want to see the process. And you want to see proof. But then you have to do it. So those three years of creating community, of doing the show,

Kevin Mooney (44:20.227)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (44:24.664)
Sure.

José Caballer (44:33.41)
were not necessarily huge revenue makers and then I ended up doing some review on the show of agency websites. One of them was blind, Chris Doe's agency, and he called me like, what the fuck are you doing? What are doing? Why are you talking about me? Why are you talking about my agency? I was shown it as an example of like good agency website. said, let's have lunch.

Kevin Mooney (44:55.598)
Yeah.

José Caballer (44:57.57)
we ended up, you know, the rest of the story there. Because also the space that I was in was that guy was moving up to San Francisco. The moral of the story is that the answer to your question, you love it, do it. And as you go, you have to start putting in place, you know, a little thing here, a little test there. Hey, everyone, you know.

Kevin Mooney (45:00.013)
Yeah.

José Caballer (45:22.946)
This is an experiment and I put something on Gumroad and it's like my last five projects, know, processed. 10 bucks just to test it out or 100 bucks, whatever you want to put it. But the idea is to test the loop between basically awareness and then

Kevin Mooney (45:40.344)
Yeah.

José Caballer (45:49.974)
where people believe that you're legit and where then they reciprocate with giving you money because it's value. The challenge is that because the model is so ephemeral and you're not building a website, you're not giving them a logo, you're not doing things, you're like, my God, I'm ripping people off. It's like, this is horrible. No, I mean, if you really...

Kevin Mooney (45:59.49)
Hard earned cash, yeah.

José Caballer (46:19.01)
believe and understand what you're doing as a thing that will help others. As long as you're genuinely committed to helping other people and you're providing value, you can ask for money.

Kevin Mooney (46:33.71)
Yeah, for sure. And I don't think I'll ever feel weird about that. I think the space that I feel weird in is reproducing something that's already out there, just in my voice, in my flavor. Like that feels kind of gross to me. I don't want to do that.

José Caballer (46:44.514)
Thank

José Caballer (46:52.448)
I don't understand. I'm not clear what that is. What do mean reproducing something that is already out there? There's other podcasts?

Kevin Mooney (46:58.264)
Let's no, let's say, I I'm speaking specifically to like a digital product. so I wouldn't want to reproduce brand strategy and just say, well, this is my version of brand strategy and put it out there. I mean,

José Caballer (47:20.812)
So, go ahead.

Kevin Mooney (47:21.964)
The way that I think about it really, really fast is like, I want to do something unique to me. And I think I've actually stumbled on something that could be unique to me and not a lot of people are talking about it. I think what are, where my brain goes is like, okay, now how do you amplify that? How do you get people to believe in it? Because the thing that I'm talking about that's in my head is something that nobody else really even understands. I'm you would understand it.

other people, well, it's this idea of that book I told you about the advantage and technically this has been done. It's just not done in our space. Right? So the book is the advantage. It's I'll just read the title. Why organizational health trumps everything in business. And you know, it doesn't talk about anything in terms of brand in here, but what I have realized reading that book,

José Caballer (47:52.962)
Try me out, try me out.

Kevin Mooney (48:21.654)
is that it has everything to do with brand. And brand is a word that I wish we could abolish and get rid of because it's just been abused and drug through the mud for so long. I don't even want to say it anymore. And so what I've come to realize is brand really does equal organizational health. And what is organizational health? Well, it is

quite frankly, getting the leadership on the same page. So it runs, this book runs under four disciplines. The first is build a cohesive team. The second is create clarity. The third is over communicate clarity. And the last one is reinforce clarity. So it's just like clarity, clarity, clarity, clarity all the way through. But at the top, how do you build a cohesive team?

And the book touches on a lot of different subjects within it. The main ones are that cohesive teams should be built on results, accountability, commitment, conflict, and trust. And there's certainly exercises to help facilitate the leaders in that department.

But they talk about Myers-Briggs a lot, specifically in the conflict zone. So when you have conflict at the leadership level, how do you get these people to kind of A, be a little bit more comfortable in conflict, but also not let conflict ruin the thing that you're doing. And I'm sure you've seen it and I see it all the time. Every time a project that I work on fails, it's because the leadership team falls apart or doesn't know what they're doing or

is focused on the wrong thing, whatever that may be. And so you see a lot of that Myers-Briggs come up in that. If you can just, and at Feet you did this, you talked about this with Brian recently on his show, and you gave an example where you used FEDO and you put everybody in groups and you let them do an exercise and realize nobody got anything done until you mixed them up and then everybody accomplished the task immediately. It's the same idea.

Kevin Mooney (50:47.022)
if you can start to identify who is on.

who's on the team, what their types are, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are, then you can kind of rally around one common goal. But the idea here is, like taking this thing that maybe doesn't belong in brand in what everyone's talking about right now and smacking it right down in the middle of that and teaching these principles. To be fair, I don't want to rip off Patrick Lencioni

because this is his thing. But it's not applied to brand. And I think that is something that I don't want to say capitalize on, that's something I can stand behind. Because it puts the thinking way up here. You need to be able to establish your mission, your vision, your values, your goals. That comes in the form of why do we exist? How do we communicate that? How do we behave? What do we do? Things like that.

So I could see myself putting together something there and trying to rally behind that and push it out there. But I don't want to do brand strategy. It's been beat to death and everyone's got it. I don't know that I can do better than some of those things. Sure, I could put my flavor into it, but it's a little bit overdone at this point. Like we don't need another Jurassic Park. It's already been made. know, 17 of them have been made. We're good. We're all set.

José Caballer (52:07.488)
Yeah.

José Caballer (52:21.356)
I respectfully, I'm going to pop your bubble there of righteousness. I'm going to quote my friend Christo, who said to me, you know, unless you don't tell me an idea you haven't, unless you're not open for me stealing it, because it's about execution, not about the idea.

Kevin Mooney (52:25.486)
Great, I love this.

José Caballer (52:41.986)
True, very true, very fair. That whole like FEDO thing for teams when I was execute. First of all, every exercise in core, I didn't do any of them. I didn't design any of them. I didn't come up with them, that's my point. I did put them together. I did like learn, I packaged them, sold them. I named it, I was the face. I did it a lot and practiced it.

Kevin Mooney (52:58.733)
Right.

José Caballer (53:08.748)
But I'm like you, like it's gotta be real if I don't trust it over and over again and I know it, I'm embodying it because I've hit my head. You and I learn very similarly, I have your human design in front of me. So we have to learn it to believe it. But then the thing about, you know, Patrick and Sione, which who I love, you know, the five dysfunctions of a team. I read a book called Tribal Leadership, which is that.

I don't know if he's still at USC, but one of the heads of communications or something at USC School of Business, who I had met in person a while ago, a company called CultureSync. Look, it's a thing. What you're talking about is a thing. And there's multiple people that do it. You asked me the question of what the system... What was your question in this very...

Kevin Mooney (53:56.108)
It was something around like the core purpose of the system.

José Caballer (54:04.404)
Right, so for me, the system's core purpose is a playground. The word playground being inherently. I'm not an expert in organizational development. I have these tools. I've went to a bunch of transformational seminars. I've read a bunch of books.

Kevin Mooney (54:04.494)
did I say?

José Caballer (54:22.018)
I've dug deep into a bunch of things and then I can only share my experience based on my experience. And at that stage, I feel accurate, then, not accurate, authentic and real. Like I'm not ripping anybody off because look, this is how I did it. I don't know how it's gonna work for you, but this is how I did it. And then I do it enough times and you get testimonials, right? Over and over and over.

Kevin Mooney (54:44.024)
Sir.

José Caballer (54:49.346)
recently so I'm gonna post a testimonial from my first MyCore coaching one-on-one client from a year ago. And I was testing core on people and I started that doing that two years ago, Teams, which I love the idea, I'm actually thinking of doing something just like what you're saying. So the question is, do you do it first? Do I do it first? Do we collaborate on doing it? How do you do it? There's no new idea under the freaking sun. So tribal leadership.

Kevin Mooney (55:14.316)
Yeah, that's true.

José Caballer (55:17.154)
Ray Dalio, you should read his book Principles. A, his YouTube channel is lit. So going back to the issue of

José Caballer (55:29.29)
my three day trip. I'll tell you another thing that I saw and this has always tripped me out. You know what a panopticon is?

Kevin Mooney (55:42.51)
No.

José Caballer (55:45.058)
It's basically in circular prisons they have all the monitors, right, and the jailers have cameras that could see the entire jail, all the different things, right? There was a show, an art show that I...

that an artist created in the gallery shortly, a long time ago in downtown LA. The show is called Panofticon. And the whole artist statement was about that we're heading into a place where we're not only the observers, we're also the jailers. We're designing, we're actually, which we are TikTok, know, Instagram, YouTube, this podcast. And the reason I share that, and I'll end it here.

Kevin Mooney (56:19.16)
Hahaha

José Caballer (56:35.394)
To me, the system community is a co-creation lab. It is a panopticon where we can watch each other, like, you know, do stuff where Kevin Mooney can go in and say, I'm gonna do this course. need to, I wanna do weekly kind of sessions because I need accountability. And Brian joins and, you know, Felicia joins for a bit and people who are interested in doing this idea. But the company that you sent me, I love, what's the name of it?

Kevin Mooney (57:05.038)
Parliament, they're fantastic.

José Caballer (57:09.258)
It's Pacific Southwest, I can tell the flavor, there are executives that are experienced and they're basically doing what's called change management. I'll send you, I did a deck for a lead that was just me showing my change management work at ConsenSys and at...

this Chief Brand Officer award that I realized that managing brands is about managing the team and the company. There's another company, there's another name, another book that you should also look at because it's pretty amazing. That is like the Connected Company or something like that. It's blue. It was written by a social media agency many years ago by my friend, Jeff Dachas, the founder of Racerfish. And it has some diagrams in there and some explanations of the fact that

Kevin Mooney (57:41.55)
Hmm.

José Caballer (57:53.716)
successful social media isn't about what you're printing, it's about culturally how you set up the teams to express your brand quick enough and authentically enough. That's why individual creators are much more successful or are much more known today because they don't have to deal with the whole organization.

Kevin Mooney (58:06.594)
Yeah, makes sense.

José Caballer (58:10.752)
Try to be a thousand person organization, dealing with AI and dealing with content creation and dealing with all those things, policies, all those things, it's a mess. So it's learning through play. Mistakes are part of the process. I'm doing it over and over again. I've fucked up stuff and people have been pissed at me and I've this and I've that. It's messy, right? But the essence is the thing.

And right now, as we kind of move into this next phase in 2026 and as we end 2025.

there's been so much clarity just even writing the answers to your questions. Cause it's about trust. So if you're building an organization that is a collective and you're going to deliver projects together, doesn't it help that Bruno is a Leo and he's going to get pissed when I tell him that the reason I didn't pick him as a designer is because he's a Leo and I want to work with him. And then I put a cancer and a well, another person to do it. And they went off in a different direction.

So I brought back another person and said, you're a Gemini, your wife's an architect, you guys have talk and figure it out. That was the meeting that I was in before this.

Kevin Mooney (59:23.63)
Got it.

José Caballer (59:26.996)
So I honestly don't know, like, because I've done so many business plans and so many ideas, and I'm kind of done with that. I'm just going to build, deal with the things that I have in front of me. Yes, there's my core, which I'm going to do. I'm doing one-on-one coaching, and I'm going to do a self-product about that. And that's literally the hypotheses that

Any network, any community, any organization requires each individual to be defined sufficiently to the point that they're clear on their purpose, they're clear on their attributes, they're clear on their personality, they're clear on the vision for their lives, and we did that collectively, that when you put them together, what it creates is what? Is it a brand? Is it a, like...

Kevin Mooney (01:00:22.68)
mean, it's just collective health, right? That's how I view it.

José Caballer (01:00:22.774)
What is it?

José Caballer (01:00:31.328)
And my invitation to you, this Thursday we're doing our session, and we're trying to think, hey, let's do user profiles, customer profiles for the community, which we've been trying to wrap our heads around for a while. And I said, you know what? Just bring your own customer profiles. Let's look at them, adjust them, and figure out how are you doing business development-wise? How are you doing revenue-wise? OK, once we figure that out collectively in the circle, what are the overlaps between the shared users? I'll tell you why.

We're all still very much kind of focused on this idea that we can sell identity brand, web, whatever it is to people. And if you think about it from a future facing standpoint, if I'm an entrepreneur who is savvy enough to say, you know what?

I'm going to go to the X platform and I've done it. Put in like my idea for, you know, the website that I need and it's going to create the landing page for me. Why do I need to hire Kevin Mooney to fucking do this for me?

Kevin Mooney (01:01:35.468)
Right. You don't, you don't. And I try to tell people that now, like you don't need to hire me for anything except for this stuff up here, because you need somebody who's going to think through this and be able to read between the lines. And right now the machines can't do that. and that's where I want to live. And I think parliament has, they're ahead of the curve and whether they did that because AI is coming or not, they live in a really great space.

And I think, how do I say it? I guess I just think that that's future proofing something for at least the next seven years, right? It's like, that's where I want to be. I don't want to be in the making of things anymore. I don't even want to be in the management of things anymore. That stuff just wears, wears me down. And then the other part of that is, you know, a Met helped me understand this in our last, in the last podcast was like,

You know the the imposter syndrome shows up for those people who have taste that is up here and execution skills that are down here. And that's probably true, at least in my case, because I don't have the greatest execution skills. I can I can get pretty damn far. I think I am doing it right now, but it takes a lot of energy away from thinking, because I have to switch my brain over to.

Alright, what tool am I using? OK, I'm in in design. How do I use this thing again? What am I doing? OK, OK, and then I relearn in design and then I forgot everything that I was thinking about in strategy and my original big idea zone. But it's that that's the place where I want to live, at least for the foreseeable future in terms of client.

José Caballer (01:03:34.752)
I believe you and here's my, I wrote this before, don't ask me why, just found it while removing, accept it before you fake it, just accept that that's what you're gonna do. Here's the thing, I'll say it and I'll try to be really brief. I've been struggling to put out the next chapter of my book which, know, it's on Substack and.

So I've sexed little confusing, so I got confused the other day. I'm like, oh my God, I have two profiles now, what happened? Ah, how do I do this? Fuck it, I'm gonna just keep on publishing. It'll sort itself out. And the book is controversial in its title, and I'm sharing it here because we're being, you know, rebellatory. I mean, I told you that story at the beginning, fuck it. And it's called From Negro de Campo to Liberty, which means from field Negro to liberty.

Kevin Mooney (01:04:04.43)
You

José Caballer (01:04:27.2)
respectfully, you're still in the field. What you just told me, like, I don't know, I open InDesign. I'm like, my god. I'm like, you shouldn't be opening InDesign if you don't need to. But to get to the house, if you're obnoxious evil, and that means that you can talk about it and get people there, what's ingredient is missing?

Kevin Mooney (01:04:31.054)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Mooney (01:04:36.75)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:04:49.73)
Somebody to do it.

José Caballer (01:04:51.106)
Yeah, people. So then the question is like, well, how do I pay people? Well, you you can collectively begin to define and sell together and say, we're going to split it this way. So I really believe in what we're doing as we speak is figuring out how to set up the community so that we can be a collective. And if you go to the system.co, it already has talks a little bit about the collective. It just has a header as the collective. And we've been testing that for a while.

I'm not going go into how that's gone because there's been good stuff, there's been bad stuff. It is complex to do it, to be a collective and then to do it in the community. The taste levels and the...

Kevin Mooney (01:05:25.166)
Sure, to be expected.

José Caballer (01:05:36.05)
Skill levels are really like this, right? So I don't know what to do, right? If I'm selling courses and saying to people, good luck, assholes, great. But if I'm trying to put people together in groups to do actual projects for a client, that's a whole different game, right? And then I feel like, shit, I'm ripping off my client if I'm using my community at lower rates so that they can practice or so they can learn. But the truth is that I did that when I had my agency.

Kevin Mooney (01:05:47.608)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:05:55.488)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:06:05.924)
I hired interns from Arts Center, I trained people and that was my thing. I trained, trained, of course I always showed up in front of a client and took credit or blame for whatever the heck was happening. Okay, so for you, Kevin Mooney.

Kevin Mooney (01:06:06.956)
Yeah, of course. Yeah.

José Caballer (01:06:25.782)
The point of all that is to go from the field, let's get rid of that metaphor because it's not just controversial. You have to be Dominican or Afro Latino or African American or who cares. Masters and slaves, we have two. have people who, and that's also the feminine.

and the masculine. So from a symbol standpoint, know, the feminine represented by black and the masculine represented by white and integration represented by the ability to hold and go between both, right? I've been struggling with and dealing with how to hold myself accountable, but also hold others accountable because being polarized in the feminine,

whether it be low testosterone or whether it be I've just been like that all of my life.

The fear of like, you know, no, I need it this way and you know, with love, respectfully, of no, right, of nope, and hurting people has been so large, especially after being traumatized at Consensus, where I saw that act play out in mass.

The short of that is going back to your love for organizational dynamics and doing that culturally. Because it was decentralized, there weren't managers in between anyone and anyone. So the game, that three day thing that I was seeing was...

José Caballer (01:08:04.994)
basically a melee like Squid Games with no manager to protect a 26 year old Gen Z from a 46 year old Virgo finance bro who would rail into that person and that person would just kind of go, oh my God, what the fuck? Or people the same age.

Kevin Mooney (01:08:23.054)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:08:26.53)
Whoa. Yeah.

José Caballer (01:08:32.906)
and this is going back to the feto in astrology, everyone behaves pretty close to their signs, right? People like me, Taurus's and Capricorn's, we were notoriously the most violent people inside the melee because we would just do what we wanted, take what we wanted and tell people to fuck off. Not me, but I witnessed it.

Kevin Mooney (01:08:51.982)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:08:54.294)
Pisces, Scorpio, Cancer, the water science. Scorpio was always gossiping in the bushes and from behind and running the dark net. Again, for those of you who know astrology, you'll see those references. The reason I'm sharing that, again, is that that trauma in me creates a hindrance in the ability to move forward by being able to learn how to...

Ask for what you need from people, from the universe, from deals, collaborators, clients, et cetera. Have the confidence that what you are...

Kevin Mooney, with your experiences, your taste level, your strategy. Look, I don't have to see all your work. I've seen some of it. To know that you have internalized, learned and embody the strategic tools that you've learned from whoever, from me, from Anneli Hansson from Chris Do from all of the 5,000 coaches and instructors that are now. Actually, it's more than that. It's like a million. But...

Kevin Mooney (01:10:02.232)
Yeah. There's so many.

José Caballer (01:10:05.312)
But by the way, there's still only 50 million on YouTube and the creator economy is supposed to be 450 billion by 2030 or whatever the year is. So you're missing another 100 million. And then you ask yourself, what do we need more for? There's Spanish, there is hybrid, there's queer, there's weird, there's bend Oregon style, you know? So every tag in the algorithm is possible, but you have to accept that you are gonna own that. And what is it that you're owning?

Kevin Mooney (01:10:13.175)
wild.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:20.11)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:24.887)
Right.

José Caballer (01:10:35.734)
Kevin Mooney style. Yeah. I'm Kevin Mooney and I believe that organizations are healthy when their people are heard open and can be authentic in who they are. And I'm here to talk about, you know, whatever behavioral assessments.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:37.036)
Yeah, I'm myself. I'm owning the style, the vibe, everything. Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:53.585)
Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I think it's a, I think it's actually a solid, solid play. And I, I think even from five 30 this morning, when I mentioned that to you, I was like, Oh, now I, now that I've said that out loud, granted it was through typing. I was like, Oh, this, this is, that's kind of a sweet spot for me. Cause I love personality types and dynamics and psychology. And that's kind of the reason that I've fallen into this, this space.

just so happened to materialize as like a couple of failed companies and then a creative agency and then kind of moving on past that and having my own breakdown and trying to figure out what I want to do. But it's like, that's what makes me excited. And right now, the format that we're using right now, it's shaped, it's changed shapes multiple times since the first time that I did that.

did the first show and that was only two months ago, right? So every week I'm interviewing somebody and I'm like, Ooh, this is where I want to take it. Ooh, that's where I want to take it. maybe it's this, maybe it's that. And, and it's so it's ever evolving. And so, you know, the content that I'm producing right now isn't really guru-y. And here are the things that I use to create organizational health. It's like, I'm just talking, I'm holding space. I'm allowing people in the community that I'm in to share their story.

find some common ground, maybe debate a little bit, poke some holes just like you did today. Say, hey, listen here, dude, I'm gonna pop that little bubble that you're living in and make you rethink that shit. And I love that. And I just wanna do that all day long. And if I have to do any work.

José Caballer (01:12:39.106)
Hold on, I don't mean to cut you off. You said, and if I have to do any work, so hold that so that you can finish that sentence. Ben Dorigan, you are the equivalent of a field Negro as a white man because you come from a place that's in the country, et cetera. So you were going to say, if I have to do any work.

Kevin Mooney (01:12:44.974)
Yeah, here we go.

Kevin Mooney (01:12:52.803)
Yes.

Kevin Mooney (01:12:58.606)
If I have to do any work, I want to do work at that level. want to do it at the organizational health level. It doesn't mean that I don't produce anything. It's just like this is the next tier. And Heather Crank, she said this in her episode. She was like, you know, the trend that I see in this creative industry, when you're in a small town, the first wave is like web. Everyone wants a website.

Right. And so the reason that I had a web design and development company here in town was because everybody wanted web design and development. And I didn't really like doing it. I liked working in identity and brand. And now the trend is kind of moving to identities and brand. And then there's a little bit of the strategy that's kind of coming in here. And I'm like, great time to jump ship to the next thing. I want to go up to the next year. What is that thing?

And that is that idea that I mentioned earlier about kind of pulling people up in this community. Like, Hey, there are bigger things to be thinking about than just the thing that you think is going to help your business succeed. And I don't know if it's like my own self sabotage where I want to leap to the next stage ahead. whether it's, want to be there by myself.

or whether it's like, okay, now is the time for me to jump there because everyone is moving to that stage that I was just on. I don't know exactly what it is, but I guess these things are becoming very clear to me by talking to people through this medium, through this show that I'm doing right here. So it's been very helpful. And when I say if I have to do any work, it's because I really wanna get...

José Caballer (01:14:48.139)
This is it, right?

Kevin Mooney (01:14:49.538)
This, this is, this is the thing that I want to be doing. Right. And then if I had to do any work, then sure. want to be at least at that high level of thinking over here. and that probably has everything to do with my FEDO, my Myers Briggs, my, human design and all of those things point to, I need to be the talker. I need to be talking and to be sharing my wisdom. need to be sharing these types of things. And then when it comes down to

making that logo, I'm like, God, how do I do this again? You know, what do I want it out? I don't know. That's, that's just my rant, my contribution to this part of the conversation.

José Caballer (01:15:31.874)
First of all, I love your rat and I love you. You're like a fucking like my, because you're obnoxious. you said something about you wanna see it done, right? If you're in the feto, one of the best psychometric assessments and the funniest, go to my Instagram and you'll see it. You can go to the community and you'll do it and eventually it'll be online. But I made it that obnoxious so that nobody can steal it because nobody's gonna say flaky, dorky, and obnoxious.

Kevin Mooney (01:15:40.536)
Hahaha

Kevin Mooney (01:15:50.135)
It is great.

Kevin Mooney (01:16:01.198)
They don't have the balls to do that. Nope. No.

José Caballer (01:16:01.596)
No corporate has the balls to do that. So that's a secret. Make your shit so stinky that nobody will copy it. But you know what? I have influenced a lot of shit. But you can't dwell on that. Only the last thing you did is the best thing, right? So I wrote this. You asked me about my core. And I wrote this inspired this morning.

Kevin Mooney (01:16:08.29)
Hahaha!

José Caballer (01:16:24.162)
And powered by UX designer here in Panama City works for a crypto company that just sold a coin base and he also makes little psilocybin Mushrooms, I mean the dude is amazing Anyway That's a plug for his business. I know it's not because you can't ship you can't ship this to the US So I wrote this so you asked me about my core. So the web design branding and strap. I'm gonna read this. Is that okay?

Kevin Mooney (01:16:40.194)
Love it.

Kevin Mooney (01:16:50.177)
Of course, yeah, let her rip.

José Caballer (01:16:52.3)
I'm working it out because it's with you. So the web design, branding, and strategy business is changing. To quote Gary Vee, you're either a product creating content or a content creator selling a product. But.

But we struggle to redefine ourselves, to make that jump, to believe that we can make the transition needed with consistency because we're self taught, because we're old, because we're getting foggy, because we're queer, because we're weird, because we have ADHD, because we're overwhelmed, whatever the reason, because we're depressed, porque somos negros, because we're field negros. And we get stuck, we get paralyzed, doom scrolling. We go into fight or flight mode.

We can't think straight. We can't make a plan, hoping that the next video will tell me the secret. We're waiting for someone to save us, but no one's coming. Alex Hormosi, Gary Vee, Chris Doe, I'll trigger you. You don't want to be told how to do it because you're obnoxious evil. You want command of your own process. So how do we do it for fuck's sake? That's the copy.

Slow down, my coach. Breathe. Get in the tub. Light a cigar or a joint or whatnot or both. Good. I like you. In parentheses, whatever you like. It's at your own risk. The authors of this text might endorse any specific ritual medicine. Thank you. I have to say that for the lawyers.

Kevin Mooney (01:18:15.234)
Or both.

Kevin Mooney (01:18:19.662)
You

José Caballer (01:18:30.28)
Now let's do it from the inside out. Let's do it from feeling. Let's do it from joy. Let's do it from essence, from embodiment, from being in your true self. You know, you just want to talk. Let's reorient work and life around your essence rather than the identities we believe we are. And that means like dad, know, husband, brother, Bend, Oregon, straight, white, male designer, you know.

Kevin Mooney (01:18:53.229)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:18:58.036)
worthy, whatever the labels are, beyond the identities that we put.

José Caballer (01:19:06.05)
Let's reorient work and life around the essence rather than the identities we believe we are guided by rituals not roles. Let's create stability without rigidity, abundance without ego, and community without conformity. Let's do it from your core. What do you want to create? Financial stability, abundance without ego,

What's the full picture? Your patterns, fears, desires, strengths. What's your essence? Your unique magic. That thing that makes you who you are. Who your X factor. What do you do? What do you do it for? How do you do it? And what impact do you have? How are you different? Who are your co-creators? Who are you in the past that you can talk to? You in the current that you can be grounded in? You in the future that you aspire to be? You and I are in

in that we are right there. You and I are. Remember I told you that idea of the Panopticon, that we're each other watching each other?

Kevin Mooney (01:20:13.774)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:20:14.752)
the vision that I saw was actually that we are the same person watching ourselves experience a bunch of different lives in Bend, Oregon and Latin America. And I'm like sitting there going like, whoa, this shit is really kind of strong. And the truth is that there's a lot of truth in that, but I won't go into that. So at the end, and there's a bunch of other things I'm describing basically that my core, you know, process that the last thing is record, share and celebrate your story with the community.

Kevin Mooney (01:20:22.401)
Interesting.

José Caballer (01:20:43.904)
That's your graduation because now you defined it and the community knows and they're like, hey, that's what you want to do? cool. Hey, you know what? There's a guy in Portland that used to be my client. You should totally, he's super cool. You should talk to him about that. He's really, he's a startup CEO. He's actually going to be somebody who's going to be very good at getting your clients to do what you want to do, that thing. And you guys have to relate and you guys will totally get along super well. He's obnoxious, flaky.

Kevin Mooney (01:20:50.274)
Right.

Kevin Mooney (01:20:57.25)
Right.

Kevin Mooney (01:21:13.678)
Perfect.

José Caballer (01:21:13.79)
He's the CEO who just talks and gets stuff done, heads down, but he hires a team. He's super smart, but he doesn't do any of stuff himself. That's a good CEO. And then, yeah, that whole text was inspired by your question, but also because of the power of AI. That's the conversation I had with somebody yesterday.

Kevin Mooney (01:21:19.533)
Right.

Kevin Mooney (01:21:24.578)
Yeah, yeah it is.

José Caballer (01:21:41.994)
two days ago that I was onboarding into my Core 101 coaching and it's what they wanted. Is it coincidence that it's what Kevin Mooney is going through?

Kevin Mooney (01:21:47.854)
Very cool.

Kevin Mooney (01:21:54.542)
Who knows,

Probably not a coincidence.

José Caballer (01:22:01.516)
We're all going through it right now as we speak, meaning the industry changing, we're getting older.

Kevin Mooney (01:22:03.202)
Yeah, yeah.

José Caballer (01:22:12.962)
Anyway, I'll shut up. Thank you for letting me read that. We love your feedback.

Kevin Mooney (01:22:14.69)
Yeah, it's great, man. Yeah, of course.

I'm curious about the you know my core. I don't know how much time you have. If you want to run off to lunch, I'm totally OK with it.

José Caballer (01:22:30.69)
I'm here and we're here to do this.

Kevin Mooney (01:22:33.678)
Okay, so you're developing Core 3.0, correct? Or is it already out? Where does that live?

José Caballer (01:22:43.436)
Core 3.0 was on the future, it's no longer there. I'm gonna put it up on the system community and Circle. If you or anyone wants to, what do call it?

an ADD when you body double, when you hang out and you know, we put it up and we can talk and chit chat and then you'll see how it works, how I did it. But I'm gonna upload that. The reason why, against my advisor's advice, didn't focus on core a year, two, three, four years ago.

Kevin Mooney (01:23:06.595)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:23:20.416)
And I shifted to my course for the same reason that you are passionate about. After you do this long enough and you see that the tension is really the people and that you want to just work on individual definition. But it was also being clear that we're shifting towards a creator economy and the thing that you struggle most with is you are now the product. let's.

Kevin Mooney (01:23:45.368)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:23:46.304)
put you into the center and once you create you and your character, you're who you are, authentically, everything will work out from that. But it's been a struggle because I have deliverables and things that I'm committed to. It's really hard for me to do content and courses while I have clients because I feel like shame. Like I literally feel shame that I'm competing.

Kevin Mooney (01:23:56.61)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:24:08.984)
man.

José Caballer (01:24:15.254)
with that I'm cheating. It's basically like I have a married and I'm out fucking somebody else. That's how I feel. you have to kind of make a decision and that's where you were talking to me about like, you wanna be a filmmaker? Part of it is because the stories are really easy to tell across many personalities when you tell it visually in a film. Part of it because that's one of the things I felt.

Kevin Mooney (01:24:21.452)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I get it.

José Caballer (01:24:42.742)
that I've struggled with in my creator career, the consistency, the ability to create really good narratives. So.

What you're missing is sometimes what you have to really kind of kind of wanting to embody and become and who you have to surround yourself with. But at the end of to be tactical about answering your questions. I'm curious what you think you need to develop your course and what I can lend you from my process that would be useful both on this call and in the continuation. Ask me any.

Kevin Mooney (01:25:18.178)
My course, my course being.

José Caballer (01:25:23.296)
your, let's call it team dynamics one-on-one for brands.

Kevin Mooney (01:25:29.556)
this thing that I kind of brought up today.

José Caballer (01:25:32.033)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:25:37.742)
I mean...

Kevin Mooney (01:25:41.592)
Gosh, mean, I'm like, you know, my brand strategy that I run, because what I run in terms of brand strategy is like part core, part Annelie Hansen brand strategy, part shit I just made up that were like exercises that, I don't know, I doubt they exist in the world. They're just things that kind of made sense to me.

So maybe I could sell my brand strategy because it is a hodgepodge and made up everywhere. But that information like flashes in front of me. And then some of the newer creators out there who are now public, their words flash in front of me. And the common denominator in there is your target audience and your goals, right? Those are the things that...

I struggle with the most and I could ask myself these questions, but I don't have anyone to bounce it off of. So I think it kind of goes nowhere. So really it's like, if I were to have help from anybody, it's like lend me your ear and say some real shit back to me, right? Say this is that stupid. Don't fucking do that. Kev, go, go over in that direction, right? Cause that's what you're talking about. Because everything in my head is just this big giant.

cloud of data spinning around and I'm kind of reaching up and grabbing onto these points and unplugging them in for a minute. And maybe it makes sense. Maybe it doesn't. But I guess where I'm going with that is like, I don't know who my target customer is because I don't know what my goal is. You know, for a long time I said my goal was I want to be able to work with whoever I want whenever I want, however I want for however much I want. Like those were, that was the goal.

Wouldn't that be nice? But because this industry is shifting so fast, now my goals, they have to shift because now I have to be ahead of the demise of this industry. And whether the...

José Caballer (01:27:57.088)
What, why, why, it's gonna end no matter what.

Kevin Mooney (01:28:00.088)
Well, right. so I just got to, I got to go somewhere else. I got to shift. but I have to, well, Jose's not being recorded. Something happened.

Kevin Mooney (01:28:14.018)
But I don't know, is your recording back on?

Kevin Mooney (01:28:21.144)
No worries.

Kevin Mooney (01:28:43.832)
Yeah. I mean, I see you, so.

Kevin Mooney (01:28:55.0)
Yeah, it is. So I'll wrap this up.

Should be good. I mean, you're still here. I still see you and worst case we just get audio from here. No worries. But it this this ties back into something that you said with Brian or maybe Brian said it, whoever said it was on his show. And it was like, hey, with all these changes in this industry. The top 10 % best performers are going to live on and then everybody else is going to basically disappear.

And so that's, that's the case. That's the fact, that's the truth. So where am I going to go? What am I going to do? And so I, as all I'm trying to do is illustrate this idea that my goals are kind of shifting and changing all the time. And that's always a problem for me because I need something, someone, somewhere to kind of help ground those, those, those ideas somewhere. Once they're grounded, I can pretty.

much, you know, whether it's do the rest or figure out the rest, but it's like, you can't go anywhere. I preach this to, to my clients. I preach it to my friends and my family members. You have to identify your goal first. Then you have to know who you're talking to. Then you have to know what you're doing, how you're doing it, why you do it, all of that other fun stuff. And if I can't even do it for myself, then you know, I'm just

chasing my tail around in a circle. So it's kind of a long way of saying, I think I probably have all the tools. It's more about getting down to what is the goal of any of this stuff that I'm doing. And I can get lost in outer space because I can say the thing I said to you in the first episode, is, well, if the earth is.

Kevin Mooney (01:30:55.254)
In the Goldilocks zone and we're moving out of it and this thing's going to disappear. Then why does any of this thing fucking matter in the first place? So who cares? But that's, that's like the problem of my brain is I can't find the anchor point to, to put that stake down and kind of figure it out. So I don't know if that answered your, your question back to me.

Kevin Mooney (01:32:04.59)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:32:24.366)
Hahaha

you

Kevin Mooney (01:32:34.636)
Right. Or not.

Kevin Mooney (01:32:47.874)
Yeah, that's fair.

Kevin Mooney (01:34:08.535)
or not. No, I'm just kidding. Just kidding.

Kevin Mooney (01:34:38.061)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:34:57.346)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:35:08.419)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:35:14.591)
I'm going do it.

Kevin Mooney (01:35:39.598)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:35:52.888)
Just a party. That's cool. Yeah, makes sense. Awesome, man. Well, I'll let you get to lunch because the universe is telling us that I, I appreciate you coming on and being as open and vulnerable as you've been. It's, you know, we're not walking away with the five steps to build a website today. I think we've covered a lot of other really great things and it's

It's really great to have someone to talk to about it. So I appreciate you.

Kevin Mooney (01:36:33.262)
Or not. Great. Awesome Jose. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Yeah, let's do it.

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