Podcast

Thank you so much for being here. I've been a follower for a very long time and I don't know, just always, always wanted to talk to you.

and some other folks, never had the opportunity. So thanks for doing this.

José Caballer (00:35.057)
Why would you want to talk to me? I'm a madman. Like what's, what's. okay. Okay. yeah. Like what, tell me a little bit about, first of all, I love the format, but like, what's the inquiry? Like, why would you want, what, what was it that kind of drew you to that? And the reason I'm asking is so that we can like, yeah, set a container and then I'll reflect it back to you.

Kevin Mooney (00:38.304)
Yeah, that's exactly why I want to talk to you.

Kevin Mooney (01:01.88)
So what is my reason for podcasting in general?

José Caballer (01:06.373)
no, no, no. That you wanted to talk to me specifically in the time that you've followed me. Like, what is it that resonated?

Kevin Mooney (01:15.622)
man, I mean, you've done things so different than the other folks in the industry, right? Setting names aside, like everybody kind of went after fame or stardom or money or community or whatever that be. And you kind of just stuck your middle finger up to the world and was like, that's not really what I'm interested in doing. However,

you're kind of like the godfather of all the principles that I use in my agency or have in the past. And I don't know, you've had your time in the spotlight. You've done your videos, you've done speaking engagements, you've got, you've done multiple six figure jobs, seven figure jobs. Maybe I don't even know, but in my early days of learning about the creative industry, I was drawn to your content. Like,

how do you get this alignment between your clients and the end goal, right? And so anyways, it's just a long way of saying I have followed everything that you've ever done in, and your sort of middle finger to everybody has been something that just has always resonated with me. And it seems like you're continuing to do it that path. Like you're just, you kind of change, you bob, you weave, you develop.

José Caballer (02:33.446)
Ha ha!

Kevin Mooney (02:41.324)
you're doing something now, you're in Panama, like it's just crazy. And as an ENTP, that speaks to my freaking soul of just having fun, doing what you want to do. Sure, hopefully you get paid along the way, but it's not the goal at the end of the day. So it's a very long way of saying that's why I want to talk to you.

José Caballer (03:02.525)
Holy shit, okay, now we set some very clear like expectations. I mean, the reason I also ask is because that means we're a reflection of each other. If you look at like everyone in the community inside the system on Circle, you know, there's only like 150 some people and it's okay. It's like a slow boil since last summer when I started it or last fall when I concertedly, you know, building it. But, you know, I'm using the Burning Man Camp kind of strategy, which is

Kevin Mooney (03:04.824)
Hahaha.

José Caballer (03:32.411)
Like people come, whatever they pick up, whatever they help with, you start like doing it a little bit publicly. And right now we're doing, you know, core defining the strategy for the community. Like what do people want? And I'm letting go of it and letting new people kind of take over. And then that's what I learned from the nine years of like, you know, doing that. And as part of my journey and the middle finger part, you you're not the first person to say that, that I didn't pursue fame. Here's an ironic thing, you know.

That's what I originally was kind of driven by, like this idea that by the, you read the four hour work week in 2007 and you're like, man, I don't want to have an agency. want to like work for hours and like travel and be part of the new reach or whatever the heck the title was for the book. And I'm the guy who tries it, like Mikey and the commercials and the cereal commercials. And that's also my human design. I'm a manifesting generator. My, my, my,

crosses the cross of contagion. Like I do it and I put it out a little bit. I don't even finish most of it to be clear as frustrating as that might be for some, but then other people take it over. Like the minute I saw Chris take over, you know, the school and the mandate of that, said, well, this motherfucker is going to actually spread this stuff out for reals. So I'm to go out and like just figure out the other part. So that when that's now spread all over the world, the Capricorn version of that, like let's make money doing what you love.

Kevin Mooney (04:35.426)
Yeah, for sure.

Kevin Mooney (04:49.219)
Yeah.

José Caballer (04:58.407)
which he's a master teacher and it's amazing. But now we're like, okay, now we're older. Now we have white hair. Like, what do we do now? What's real? What the fuck is happening? José where have you been? I'm like, you know, I've been on a journey. And the last part of that is that we are at the kind of threshold of a new era, right? Like literally as we stand, like, you know, we are just standing there looking at this new world and

That's what we're all here to do, meaning you, me, everyone in the community, we're here to like, guide each other to the other side of this, which is pretty big deal, because it's unprecedented. That's my...

Kevin Mooney (05:40.376)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (05:44.834)
Yeah, I mean...

Yeah, I don't know. have, I got a million questions that I can ask, but I, at some level, I kind of want to just continue to hear you talk. And I know that what, one of the things that, you know, we were talking about prior to this was, was, personality types and readings and things like that. And I, I'd like to know maybe when you, when you glommed onto those things, did you go on to those early?

I personally didn't. I, it was around 30 when I started learning about personality types and it's been sort of a North star for me. And right now in my career, I'm, I'm now using that to try to guide my career, not just my personal life. Um, so I kind of want to know just, I don't know, when did that sink in and where, when did you lean into that?

José Caballer (06:45.597)
I went to a, when you're scaling an agency for someone like me, I'm a designer, that's what I know, I've I've worked at big agencies, I started my career at Razorfish for like six years, but there's no roadmap, so I did a lot of training, like I tried to go to different, know.

from transformational stuff like landmark, et cetera. But then I said, I want to go to management training because I don't know. What do I know? And I went to management training. It was called MAP, Management Action Program, something like that, in Orange County in a hotel. All the tropes of business.

Holiday Inn, you know, it could have been a Saturday Night Live skit. And it was pretty fascinating because they gave everybody before you showed up the disc assessment, which is a behavioral psychometric assessment. And then during the session, they put us into our respective personalities. then they did the final. So disc dominance influence.

I always forget the S, which I'm forgetting right now. And then the C is compliance. Steadiness, I think, is what the S is. Steadiness and compliance, like notice how those are like, know, that steady is rhythm and that is in the feto, that is the, that's dorky, compliance is the evil. So at the end, they did this exercise where they,

Kevin Mooney (08:19.874)
Yeah, yeah.

José Caballer (08:38.161)
I'm not gonna explain the exercise, but everybody pretty much behaved to the T to their personality. I was ID, influence and dominance. So I influence to dominate, right? Versus there's people that are dominant first and then compliance, right? So if you think of obnoxious, which you are, and evil, you're basically, you're astrology. You're actually, Pisces is a...

Kevin Mooney (08:51.661)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (08:59.852)
Hahaha

José Caballer (09:08.285)
convergent, you're like the quiet catalyst. That's why you're saying you haven't been on, you know, you haven't done this, gotten on stage. But you're also like the priest, like how it should be done, like it should be done right. So it's funny, I learned astrology when I got divorced and I'm like, okay, let's start dating. And I had a teacher and my Playa husband,

who taught me how to pick up girls with astrology. Which for me being the son of a Seventh Adventist pastor who matured very late in life, and for the most part I was pretty asexual to say that. Not that I wasn't sexual, I just was kind of not necessarily too kind of defined early. So in my late 30s, early 40s, to start that like,

Kevin Mooney (10:02.85)
Yeah.

José Caballer (10:09.079)
journey was interesting, but what I basically learned by dating every sign and also friendships and know crushes and everything, knowing everyone's kind of signs, you really begin to understand how the energy interacts between people relative to their personality. So I'll give you an example.

Leo. Leo is like the lion. They want the attention. They're outgoing and performative. But then the counter to that is that they, the wounded, you know, the lion in The Wizard of Oz, right? He's cowardly. And what he has to gain is confidence. So when somebody shows up in the community,

And I know there astrology and there's Shalila, they keep apologizing for being in our calls. Keep in mind, our calls are just a playground for, you know, the training and the work that we're doing to build confidence to come out, basically, which is what we're doing right here. I know immediately that I'm like, stop apologizing, take time, take up space. No timer. And that right there doing it over and over again and providing a safe space for that.

Kevin Mooney (11:08.824)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (11:23.81)
Yeah.

José Caballer (11:29.177)
And knowing that helps me basically tune the space for that individual, Scorpio, which is the opposite of Taurus. And the fetos and astrology sometimes aren't necessarily that people... I don't know how to adjust that, maybe in the illustrations. Like you could be obnoxious flaky and be very quiet. But also...

Kevin Mooney (11:52.782)
Sure.

José Caballer (11:56.573)
be very philosophical and kind of like not going in a straight line. And you want to have that space to kind of talk and to not have the harshness of like, okay, have to, you have to, here's, you have a timer and you have to do it this way. Right. So, so the, the reason why I'm sharing that is that when I started getting interested in that management training, so I'm going to circle back to it, even though I've wandered.

I realized early on that one, you're probably not, unless everyone knows it or understands it and then knows how to communicate, how to listen, like the mitigation of the personalities isn't necessarily knowing that the other person is this way. That's helpful. That allows for empathy. That allows for you to forgive them for not to think, well, that guy's an asshole.

or for you to come in and say, should be done this way. And like, you know, my little brother, he's a Pisces and he's just very quiet until he's not. And he blows up and he goes, no, you're doing it wrong.

Kevin Mooney (13:02.968)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

José Caballer (13:05.725)
And the point is that if you're aware, now you can create a space to include everyone and to allow the different styles. Then finally, the part of that that matters is the middleware for that in an operating system, like a community or a company or an agency or a relationship is literally presence. It's just listening, knowing if you, know, oh, my apologies, you know.

When you said, you know, this, it made me feel this way. And, you know, it created this in me. So maybe, you know, what if we do it this way in the future? I didn't go, you know, towards you in that kind of like feedback. I went to the objective, to the thing that happened, how it made me feel, because everything is about, about me, right? It's, I'm the...

I'm the asshole, I'm the one reacting, I'm the one, you know, experiencing it no matter what. Even if you did something to me that is considered not nice or not great, at the end is how I respond to it. If I don't take it personally and you're just being, you know, whatever, great. You can kind of flow around that. And that's the lesson from Burning Man and building, like, with all these different personalities where I'm just like, how do people do this?

Kevin Mooney (14:33.816)
Yeah.

José Caballer (14:34.247)
They just don't take anything personally. And they're like, you know, F you, F you, okay, this is not, hey, stop doing that over there, buddy. And I'm like, sorry. And you adjust in real time without all the pomp and circumstance of civility.

Kevin Mooney (14:36.376)
Sure, yeah, that's really cool.

Kevin Mooney (14:51.32)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I have a somewhat similar story about how I got into personality types. It happened right around 30 years old. I've always struggled with communicating to people. I've always thought that I was different. I grew up in a household of people who thought a very specific way.

and there wasn't really an exploration out of those bounds. So wasn't until I left the house that I was free to explore and do all of these things. Fast forward to around 30, I have like my very first heartbreak. this gal completely just crushed my soul. And...

You know, I called my mom, I was crying. I don't know why somebody would do this to me. Why would they say those things? Whatever, whatever. And from that moment on, I sort of went on this journey of trying to understand myself so that I could receive information from people a better way. I could deliver information a better way. And that kicked off the personality type stuff. I took the Myers-Briggs test.

Granted, I did take it in college as well, but I didn't pay any attention to it. It was just an exercise. did it. So when I'm doing it later in life as an exploration, I really dig into it. And I'm starting to learn the differences between some of the main letters that help people understand the way people think, right? Intuitives and sensors. Those are the N and the S are the two letters that are vastly different.

realizing that I live in intuitive land and the majority of the population lives in sensor land, that was a huge defining moment for me. So I used this to not only understand myself, but other people so that I can communicate and sort of fix the personal aspect of my life.

Kevin Mooney (17:05.846)
While I'm doing that, I'm running my first real business. And it was an e-commerce business where I sourced kids' scooters from China. So I flew over to China. I found a manufacturer. I figured out how to ship them back to United States and pay customs and warehouse them. And I built the website and I built at the time what I call the brand.

So I'm running this thing and it just so happens that my business partner was a sensor. Not good, not bad, completely indifferent, but the biggest problem was we could not communicate between the two of us. That company ultimately fails and I'm in the building that I'm currently in right now and there's a creative agency next door to me.

And I run into the owner and we start talking. He's talking about personality types. I had just started to learn about him. He was an expert in them. We had a really great connection. He's an INTJ. So an INTJ knows how to like systematize and put all these thoughts together where the ENTP has no idea how to do that, but they've got a vision, whatever, whatever. So we have this great relationship and

He basically invites me into the agency. go through a vesting period, become a creative, and then we start applying these techniques to working with clients. And so when we would have a lead come in, we would basically type them immediately to try to figure out what their type was. And that would inform us how to deliver that information to that lead.

most of the time people are coming in they don't really know what they're looking for, at least at the level of clients that we're working with. So we can identify, this is an intuitive. can, we can kind of talk big ideas and not really worry about the process. Talk about budgets down the road, things like that. Or on the flip side, Hey, this is a sensor. They're going to need the five steps that we're going to take. They need the budget and they need it laid out by, don't know.

Kevin Mooney (19:24.19)
maybe hourly rate per person, whatever. so the personality types was just a huge catalyst to communicating with, with, with folks. And I found that over the years, I'm just really drawn to intuitives and allowing a conversation to kind of twist and turn and flow and then circle back to the original topic that we were on, which is like, how did we get started in typing people and, and

FEDO I mean, it's kind of amazing that that's something that you created and put together and have your own system around. it's been hugely beneficial to me. It's still a challenge though to this day, working in the client space to try to maybe re-figure that stuff out a little bit to kind of back up. My partner and I closed down our agency at the end of...

Of 23, we kind of went our separate ways. I wanted to do something different. I didn't know what that was and he wanted to buy a restaurant. So he went and bought a restaurant and he's over there juggling baguettes and I'm kind of refiguring out what I want to do with my life and my career.

Hence the reason that we're talking today, hence the reason that we're talking about personality types and all of these different configurations of, of communication. I just know that as an ENTP, I got to talk and this is my step of coming out of the shadows and really honing back in on, some of these things that I think I've lost over the last two years or so.

which is reading people and understanding people and communicating effectively with people. And I don't know, I just thought there's no better person to talk to than José.

José Caballer (21:21.597)
I have so many thoughts. It's like you have to meditate, almost have a meditation just to keep it, keep it anchored. But Oregon. No, no, no, no, no, no time limits, no, no, no, let's just let it flow emotion like as a manifestor. Here's your strengths real quick. You're a wise observer.

Kevin Mooney (21:31.128)
Well, I can, I can like slow down and cut this, my talks in half if you'd like.

José Caballer (21:51.195)
You see the long arcs and can offer perspectives to people. Magnetic leadership when you're grounded. Others do follow. Emotional depth, your clarity emerges over time, so it's worth the wait. It's funny, I'm reading your, what's your life purpose, your cross, the cross, I don't know who named this stuff, the left angle cross of migration. You're here to help people cross the threshold.

So when I pulled that card at the beginning, and yeah, we're looking over the threshold into the new, and I'm like, shit, know, mine is just to spark it. I'm not here to finish anything. I'm here just to spark it. And then you are here to help the crossing. So it says you serve as a midwife for the future.

Kevin Mooney (22:39.202)
That is interesting.

José Caballer (22:41.851)
Yeah, when honored, you it becomes a compass and you need to lead. You don't need to lead with force. You lead by simply modeling the new way, which we're doing here. You're getting on the mic and you're having conversation.

Kevin Mooney (22:54.574)
Can I ask you a question on this really quick? Because I've been dealing with this struggle in the agency world for a very long time. What you're saying is correct. I can see that arc. I can see that midwifery path to kind of like, hey, here's how I can help you transition. But you know what I'm not good at is let's say executing for in the agency world, right? Or in the midwifery way, it's like,

No, no, you had the child and it's your it's your baby. Now you've got to run with it. So I guess the question is like. How does how does all of that? How do I? How do I make a living out of that? How do I follow my my path in that space? And it's you don't have to have the answer. It's it's more of that open ended idea, right?

José Caballer (23:51.006)
It's a conversation and trust me, I've had the same issue, right? And here's the best thing that I can offer.

In my 20s and 30s, being absolutely just unconscious and driven by like, you know, survival mode or like, you know, what you would call the obnoxious part of my fetal obnoxious flaky. I gave no fucks. I just care and I'm a Taurus. So that's my sun sign. Right. I just careen forward. Now, when I heard someone or when somebody was like, well, well, well, I had at least had somebody to tell me.

So in my life, I have a lot of Geminis around me. My ex-partner, my brother, clients, my current partner, all those people are Geminis, right? And they are known for just saying the truth, know, hopefully lovingly. So that kept me like, you know, from being too much of, you know, an a-hole. And then the interesting thing is that we're afraid, right, of not...

been enough for a, okay, I'm this way, so how do I do the rest of it? And that's where everybody knowing each other's kind of personalities with all the tools, whatever they are. I'll give you an example. With the FEDO, I'm flaky, I'm not just, I'm like, hey, check it out, you have to do this. I then meet an evil dorky person, Chris Do and I'm like, hey, dude, like, and he's like, what are you talking about? Here, let's get on YouTube, you know, and you see the results now, right?

But I realized that that's my role, that I gotta stop trying to be him or to, you know, I am just gonna show up somewhere and like do me and things will happen. you know, the more aligned you are to your gift or to your navigation is what I call it, the better it is. So I'll give you an example. If in your feto, you are obnoxious evil,

Kevin Mooney (25:41.08)
Yeah.

José Caballer (25:54.705)
you are quantitative, so you can actually kind of work on delivery, but the obnoxious part, you explore a lot of things, but hitting the one thing is kind of like, so triangulating that with somebody who is dorking, which is process, right? And in the fetal...

Kevin Mooney (26:06.893)
Yeah.

José Caballer (26:20.925)
flaky, which is kind of ideas, right? Like just a lot of ideas. So a flaky dorky, which a lot of designers are, they have a lot of ideas, they just do the process and hopefully they show up to the end. So you see the frameworks that I've developed have been developed mainly for people like us that are nonlinear. People that are linear, which I added later, needed the six steps for each exercise. We just see you.

Kevin Mooney (26:48.087)
Yeah.

José Caballer (26:50.127)
you or people that are obnoxious, they see me do it once and they just go do it. They don't even read the instructions. So that dynamic and recognizing it. So here's the answer for that in a very specific way. If I know that I'm not going to pay attention to the process or to the details, I need to have somebody around me that will do that or I need to call for it, right? I need to ask for it. And then

in some ways I need to model it for myself, you know, at the core of what it is. whether that's a budget or whether that is a project plan or whether that is until you have somebody to do it with you doing contracts, right? That's why the first things that got released as part of the school, which became the future, were a contract template, right? Which was the MSA for my agency, the group.

a proposal template, which is this is how you pitch and sell in a consultative way, in a agency. Production companies do not sell that way. That model came from digital agencies, which I obviously worked in and then magnified and simplified, simplified and amplified by Chris's experience in design to where then it really became

something that almost anybody can use. Look, I've been traveling around the world and I've gotten pitched with my own template, with the same template that, and I'm like looking at it and going like, okay, this is, or my brother, he's building a business in Puerto Rico and the people are pitching him or selling, he already signed the deal, but they were explaining to him that they're gonna use this process called Core and they're giving him the whole thing to tell them how they're gonna design his stuff. And he's like,

Kevin Mooney (28:45.419)
Wow.

José Caballer (28:48.903)
Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. Joseca, it is my brother. And they're like, what? my God. They couldn't figure it out. So, but the thing I'm to say to give us hope, because I'll be super frank or surely.

Kevin Mooney (28:49.196)
huh. Yeah. Got it. Check.

José Caballer (29:10.693)
It's a thing, you it causes a lot of anxiety. So my hope and my wish in our community and in general is that through these tools, you recognize each other and then you provide the most important thing there is for us to be able to pass the threshold. And it's like, what do you need? You know, basically holding space neutrally without judgment. And what do you need?

And I don't have to do it for you, but if you tell me, you need to find someone who's evil dorky, I can point it out in the community and say, they can help you on the timelines. They can help you on getting your budgets done. They can help you on getting this. Because the reality is that that level of co-creation is what helps people succeed. But the majority of the models that we see today are very individualistic in that,

Kevin Mooney (30:00.471)
Yeah.

José Caballer (30:08.123)
You have to do it all right. You're a creator and you're an individual creator. Well, what happens to us people that we like doing stuff with other people or we like doing it differently? There isn't really a lot of space for that. And that's what we've been developing over these last six months, you know, with with the key people in the core circle, which, by the way, most of them, with some exceptions or some evil, dorky people there, a few, but a good

portion of the core of the core circle are obnoxious, flaky, flaky obnoxious people. Or evil obnoxious is a very common one, which to me, the one that scares me, if you have an E in your profile, it kind of scares me because I know I'm going to disappoint you somehow. But I'm learning, I'm learning for self accountability. And just to name it, hey, I'm flaky obnoxious or obnoxious flaky, think.

Kevin Mooney (30:44.942)
Yeah.

José Caballer (31:07.005)
And that's a challenge and I know that my fear is to disappoint you. Okay, it's been said. So now we roll and we figure it out.

Kevin Mooney (31:13.496)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (31:18.448)
man, I mean it's really kind of cool to pull the curtains back and understand a little bit more about the systm right? And what your vision of that thing is. Because when I first joined, I'm like, cool, what is this community? Is José gonna be talking all the time? Like, is he leading this thing? Or what are we doing in here? They kind of showed up.

unknowing of what this thing is. And Brian has helped kind of share some of the inside stuff on how it works and what's going on. But it's really cool to hear from you directly. These are the things that we're doing. And that feels really good and comfortable to me in that space. Now I'm looking at it a little bit differently, like, maybe I should pay a little bit more attention to those FEDO's

and figure out how I can collaborate with some of them. You know, as you know, I went to New York and met up with Felice. That was super awesome. It was great. had wonderful conversations. And I think we're still trying to figure out, how can we how can we work together? But aside from that, it's a great friendship. He's a wonderful person. But long story short is looking at it a little bit differently is this

hugely beneficial. You know, at the end of the day, I

I'm coming out of a really, really hard burnout phase. And I haven't been in this industry as long as you or a lot of other folks. I'm in about 10 years or so now. But after the agency, I was completely burnt out. It's just you're one client away from being a millionaire and you're one client away from closing the doors every single day.

Kevin Mooney (33:20.462)
And, you know, we had, we had signed a mid six figure contract. was our largest contract at the time. And they basically walked. And I think at that moment, it was like, my partner and I looked at each other like, well, we're just done here. This is enough with this, this type of work.

I had my baby in the beginning of 2024, so I kind of took 24 off. Come back to 2025 I restart this journey. Instead of hiding behind a logo, a company, a corporation, I decided it's going to be Kevin Mooney. It's just going to be myself. I'm just going to do me.

And so far it's served me, but I'm still running into the same issues that I ran into at the agency, right? You're still juggling all of the things you're still trying to sell all the time. You're still doing project management. You're still trying to be creative. you're fighting against budgets and people who maybe don't know the words that you're saying. and so I'm, I'm exploring these other opportunities of how do I get out of said client work and how do I.

get back to that core idea of let's have fun in business. Let's do fun things. Let's just enjoy what we do every day, day in and day out. talking is one of those things for me. But I can still go back to the system and look at the group a little bit, look at it through a different lens and be happy about that. So I appreciate you sharing.

what you shared about your vision of the community and how you're kind of bringing those people in and letting them do what they do best.

José Caballer (35:17.821)
And here's the crux of it as it relates to what you're asking, how do we do this? And I'm going through it as we speak, which is letting go, right? And allowing others to kind of, we call it delegation, we call it lot of different things. But in community building, this is like, I think the second iteration of the system community with a lot of mess ups and pains and...

challenges and blow ups and like the only reason why, well, I'm pretty tenacious. And I did core for myself the first time in 2018 in this thing called personal core. And when I designed it, I designed all these different interesting things that were coming kind of like from literally like the thing that's in the core 3.0 kit that is you in the pack, which people are like, what are you talking about?

you in the past, you in the future, foundational you and the destination is literally a type of tarot reading, right? That you're looking at the past, you're looking at the future. What do you need to make it to this part, right? So when I did that and I put myself in the middle, which in the tarot reading is the issue. So in the case of me, I am the issue.

It had just three things. One was a growing, healing and community. call it that. Media management, which is like, you know, me handling all this video and all this kind of stuff, which I'm still not even at a good point with. But at a minimum, I use Encircle as a platform. I have some control at this stage of launching, right?

But then doubling down on my gifts, which is live and facilitation and literally like facilitating community meetings. And then I made the amalgam of my facilitation experience for teams into something called circle, right? Called circle dynamics, right? And then I put it on my Instagram, right? Because instead of building in a straight line or like following whatever it is that

José Caballer (37:46.287)
you know, the playbooks are for growth on Instagram, et cetera, which.

This morning or yesterday on my Instagram is full of astrology and woo. And this guy is like, look, Taurus, you need to actually slow the F down and actually learn exactly what you're doing and study the damn details and the instructions. You played it too loose till now and now, and I'm like, damn, you're like, what are you saying to me?

Kevin Mooney (38:01.176)
Hmm.

José Caballer (38:23.497)
And I'm listening to that. But if you come to any of the core circle sessions, I'm just starting it, right? Setting it into the circle dynamic and letting the flow of it create what it is that every individual needs from it. So the thing that's missing from that though, aside from those sessions being in a specific way, is that all the people in it,

also did the MyCore coaching program. So here's what ended up happening in the MyCore coaching program, because we were doing it with each other, right? In the group program, you were defining, you know, there's like three or four exercises that are personal kind of development, you know, your hero's journey, the things that happen in your life that created your gifts, know, therapists call it, know, young and therapists call it wounds, you know.

inciting events and writing and storytelling. But these were like, whatever they might be. Yours is burnout. But we go back, right? Go into your seven to 13. And everyone has like, one person had cancer at 16. And I'm like, damn. And then they left Italy and went to New York and started working in restaurants. And I'm like, that's insane. And then went back to work at his dad's advertising agency.

Kevin Mooney (39:41.613)
Wow.

José Caballer (39:53.115)
We all knew that about each other, right? So we knew that. And then we knew our North Star. We knew what we wanna create. So now when we're coordinating and we're like behind the scenes, call it a secret society, call it whatever you want. I'm helping one of the members fine tune his agency and did interviews. I helped facilitate interviews with his clients and I did the scripts with them. I interviewed him and his partner to see what they wanted to get out of it.

because let's be fucking brutal. The agency model sucks. There's ways to make it better, but if you're in, we're all trying to figure out how to make that jump to being, let's just call it making a living without doing services. Let's just call it that. It doesn't have to be creators. I hate personal branding. Whatever the labels are, no labels. Just like,

Kevin Mooney (40:28.139)
Yeah, for sure.

Kevin Mooney (40:43.246)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Kevin Mooney (40:51.234)
Yeah. Yeah.

José Caballer (40:51.633)
We just want to live well, right? In our gifts, in our gift. So that is ultimately kind of like the goal, right? And I have no damn idea of what that is because I'm the guy who hates it when people tell me exactly how to do it. Here's the proven framework. And I'm like, fuck off. I want to do it my way. So then like, how do those people do it? Right? And my answer so far has been listen to the collective.

So here is what it is, simply from an extracted, the drop-in was, what did you get out of the MyCore program, right? And we're doing this in the product development sense, trying to, they're asking, hey, what do we do, how do we get more community members involved? What do we do? And it's, okay, what did you get out of the MyCore program and what are you getting out of what we're doing right now? And I'm not talking about, there's not hundred people. It's a small cohort and the truth is,

that you can't do a cohort bigger than six in a mastermind. You have to then split it up and the people that are now, I'm not centered to the camera, the people that are now finishing, know, what we, that are now in it will become the leaders of the next one, right? So they will each, you know, when we all gather, they will go in a room on Zoom and they'll facilitate the new folks, right? That's how you do it. But here, I'll read them just even with that, to create a safe.

Kevin Mooney (41:54.072)
Yeah.

José Caballer (42:19.505)
container where vulnerability feels natural, not forced. To model honesty and communication relationships and personal clarity. To replace overperforming and grounded presence versus performative. To cultivate coherence between inner and outer expression, like who I am and that's all from one person and that's very distilled to make it less flowery, which it was. This is another person.

to integrate somatic, physical, spiritual, and strategic practices into a lived framework. the struggle, and remember I said about Leo's, that this person has had is the permission to, after his journey of burnout and having worked in big agencies, and if you've worked at a big agency or any agency, it doesn't even matter, and you haven't burned out, wow, kudos to you. I don't know any.

Kevin Mooney (43:16.622)
For sure.

José Caballer (43:17.819)
I don't know anybody who hasn't had that moment of like, wait, this is too much. But then that person goes on to work on all these practices and now they're trying to integrate that and they're doing it with their clients. So their clients end up doing meditation, somatic work and all this stuff before facilitating and doing the work. when you see the work and the results of it, I'm like, damn, so we're designing literally a new world.

The fact that that might not even compute to the old ways, you know, is the space that we're creating. So we can slow down enough for true emergence to occur because the models that are coming afterwards are completely, you know, the future is totally like up to us one, but it's a whole new world. And when I write in the metaphor of new world, you know, and I call it a new world, I am talking about.

Kevin Mooney (43:54.904)
Yeah.

José Caballer (44:18.117)
You know, and my writing has become very coded and metaphoric, but I'm actually putting everything in there because otherwise I sound like a madman, right? Nobody wants to sound like a madman. So hint, tip, write, and metaphor. And I'm writing to you and I'm writing to other obnoxious, you know, they will, we will then say, I kind of feel it. Notice that I didn't say, I know exactly what you, I,

Kevin Mooney (44:18.232)
Yeah.

José Caballer (44:47.421)
You're feeling it, not thinking it. So when you have resonance, not grokking it cognitively, we can create embodied experiences, meaning things that feel good. And that goes back to ancestral wisdom. So the world that we're seeing play out on TV, the reality show that is the world, because literally it is the world being run by the reality show.

Kevin Mooney (44:50.03)
You're right.

Kevin Mooney (45:12.428)
Yeah.

José Caballer (45:16.221)
master, know, Gemini, by the way, Dark Gemini. And if you do their Mayan kin, like if you do the personality assessment for that person, they are the child. This is crazy and literal. They are the child of Hugo Chavez. Hugo Chavez and that person have a kin, which is Mayan version of the feto, the personality.

Kevin Mooney (45:19.736)
Hahaha

José Caballer (45:46.075)
that their type, one spawns the other. Like one encouraged the other to emerge. And it's true. It is very true. If you look at the behavior and if you look at the playbook, who's the person that that person projects like, know, damn them people, damn them people most? Venezuela, right?

Kevin Mooney (45:58.126)
This is so crazy.

Kevin Mooney (46:08.728)
For sure. Yeah. Gosh, that's wild.

José Caballer (46:09.691)
That's projection because they're using the same playbook. So anyway, and the transmuting of that pain and the complexity that's happening right now collectively and globally into a direction that we can design from is really what, and this is again, is one, all that is not me. This is one person's experience with it. So finally, somebody who's evil dorky.

to reclaim their voice and authorship and creative direction through structure, their evil dorky, so structure and reflection. So they like the consistency, they like the process, they like the frameworks, they like order. And of course, the rest of the cohort embraces them, loves them, and gives them little bit of, shakes them up a little bit to see the other stuff. And finally is like, if we can translate,

Kevin Mooney (46:45.859)
Yeah.

José Caballer (47:07.247)
emotional truth, like, you know, all those things that we can feel it into strategic momentum. That that's really important. So people, evil, dorky people benefit from coming and being with obnoxious, flaky flaky obnoxious, evil obnoxious, you know, with the other fetos because it excites and inspires them because we are we're mainly kind of in Spanish is no good. We like to talk bullshit.

Kevin Mooney (47:28.844)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (47:35.81)
Yeah, yeah, talk some shit.

José Caballer (47:36.381)
But that judgment of talking without a goal, an objective, very corporate culture, that judgment is ultimately what stops us from having connected conversations. That judgment is what causes us to have shallow relationships and ultimately from an operating system standpoint.

If you extrapolate corporate culture globally, because you can say, American corporate culture, no, it comes from Britain. It comes from the East India trading company. And think about what the goals, the purposes, and the objectives of those corporations, companies, let's call it company. What were they? What was the objective of the East India trading company?

Kevin Mooney (48:15.832)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (48:31.598)
boy, I actually don't know.

José Caballer (48:34.503)
colonialism to extract resources, to extract resources from dark brown people that had been conquered by force. So that organized a lot of the corporate culture that then went to the U.S. And even though we got rid of the king and we became our own thing, know, people still study at Cambridge and at Oxford and at all these colleges that teach corporate culture, right? Hierarchical thing, you you're in a fraternity, you get trained in a certain way, how to speak.

Kevin Mooney (48:35.832)
Well, OK, that makes perfect sense, yeah.

Kevin Mooney (48:54.382)
Yeah.

José Caballer (49:04.071)
How to like dominate, how to dominate and how to control. Okay. And then you say, well, crap, if corporate culture is colonial culture, you know, and now you're extrapolating it into this digital version of it, know, startups basically took it to another level, right? If you read some of the seminal books and that in design thinking, not in all the hippie stuff.

Kevin Mooney (49:09.102)
Cheers.

José Caballer (49:32.925)
but like, know, blitz scaling or like, you know, all that kind of stuff. It is very, what is it when you have something that's concentrate, you know, like those soaps that you get that are concentrate? Startups are concentrate colonial culture.

Kevin Mooney (49:45.176)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Mooney (49:50.222)
Holy smokes.

José Caballer (49:52.125)
fall in line and why is it that a bunch of white dudes in a startup work way better than a diverse group? Because it moves faster. The minute you add a person of color or a woman into that team, screwing up the whole dynamic. They don't have the same coded language. They don't have the same values. You're gonna screw up the whole team. So I saw that because I worked in the blockchain space at a huge thousand, 1500, know, 15.

Kevin Mooney (50:04.248)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (50:13.314)
Yeah.

José Caballer (50:20.349)
and I was in organizational development and I had a young black woman come up to me and go, how can I even fit in this thing? How do I even like have anybody listen to me or do my ideas? And I said, honey, you don't. You just do, go do your own thing and start your own thing and build your own team and don't. And it was kind of like, it wasn't that the resistance, wasn't about fitting in, I saying, you're gonna have to just.

Kevin Mooney (50:33.944)
Yeah, it just...

José Caballer (50:49.105)
to your own and take your own because that energy of like, your own, we are not encoded with it. And the book that I'm writing on Substack right now, which is a very cathartic kind of like coded version of my story over the last nine years, the next chapter is about that. It's really literally about Afro-descendant peoples because I might...

Kevin Mooney (50:50.904)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (50:56.632)
For sure.

José Caballer (51:18.905)
look this way, but at the root of it, I am from an Afro-descendant family on my mom's side of the family. And all of that epigenetically is encoded in you. And this is the last thing I'm going to say. And I actually outsourced my agency. And I'm not talking about agency as the agency model. I'm talking about my agency as a human and my confidence.

Kevin Mooney (51:28.674)
Yeah.

José Caballer (51:47.227)
So if you look at the conflict between Chris and I on the dynamic, that tension early on, other than maybe, know, bro sexual tension, which is hilarious. And whoever watches this, but no, that's the thing. The dynamic of that ultimately

Kevin Mooney (52:00.088)
Ha ha ha.

José Caballer (52:14.681)
If you ever get into a space where you have this conversation with people of color who have code switched in order to be able to navigate a work environment, let's say the agency world, creative agencies, because I've had this conversation. At the end, have to either one, surrender the fact that you're of color, right? And just behave in the coded way that

that culture has or two, in my case, what I've been working on doing is recognizing my outsourcing of my agency. Like literally, I responded when a very close person to me who knows me really well, when I was telling, they asked me a question about a person or about a people. I literally, what came out of my mouth was like,

Her response was like, what are you living on a plantation? And the adaptation of me as a child when I was younger to survive became, know, depending on others for my agency. So therefore I had to like please and dance and be the obnoxious kid who was, know, precocious, right? As an adult in my twenties and my thirties, I did the same, right? So I, I, I,

Kevin Mooney (53:14.734)
You

José Caballer (53:41.373)
I said, in order for me to be able to sell and put this kind of price on a proposal, I'm going to have somebody else help me prepare it or help or be there in the room with me when I'm pitching it, right? So that it's not José Caballero, this Dominican kid, you know, pitching a million dollar project. It's actually José Caballero with, you know, this other person who happens to be, you know, white. And again, we're both, you know,

but I had the name José, which I didn't use for a long time in high school. used Abraham, my middle name. And then I had this whole Latino, know, and screw Mecha and screw all the, you know, Latin power people in California, in Southern California. I'm just kidding. I love them. So I went to a school that had an organization that, you know, Mecha, which, you know, it was about Latin pride, you know, specifically Mexican-American. And I'm like, you know what? I should probably not be embarrassed of,

Kevin Mooney (54:16.023)
Really?

José Caballer (54:41.529)
using my first name. so between community college at Pasadena City College and arts center, I ended up changing my name back or using José and not changing it legally, but using it. And the first day of school in orientation, a friend who knew me from community college, who was also going to arts center, who goes up to me and sees my name tag and goes, who the fuck is José? And I'm like,

Kevin Mooney (55:05.506)
Hahaha

José Caballer (55:06.819)
to be. That's my first name. I'm no, that's my gardener. I'm like, my God, that's exactly what I was afraid of. You know, I've never talked to her. Or we weren't friends anymore after that. That's not the point. the point is that outsourcing your agency and your confidence only works for so long. Eventually you're going to have to integrate it or otherwise you just can't do anything, right? And that's not a unique story to me.

Kevin Mooney (55:14.337)
Wow.

Kevin Mooney (55:20.046)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (55:31.8)
Yeah.

José Caballer (55:36.857)
It's something that I've had to deal with in coaching the community over and over again. And one of the things that I saw in the system 1.0, who gravitated to the community and how, what I had to do was model, you know, over and over again, and then allowed them in a safe space to model. And by them, I mean everyone to model the behavior so that when they went out, then it was practiced the same way an actor will practice their lines or.

or a golfer will practice in private over and over again. The literal mechanic of the system 1.0 and now the system 2.0 in concerted effort is that we show up, we use the framework to be on stage, to share who we are authentically, to feel good until you, Kevin Mooney, can then show up and be the dude in the bathtub saying, you know what, fuck you, fuck you. Well, you don't say that, but.

You know what I mean? Like you just basically express, you express yourself in your full power in public without fear of not being able to make money because of it. And here's the thing. Here in Panama, one of my friends, Leo, who I went to his wedding, he has a whole club, it's called Los Atorrantes, which I call Pirates. When you meet everyone, everyone's like, it's you and me. We're all like, just like, these are people that are like literally like pirates, gruff and like, ugh.

Kevin Mooney (56:35.342)
I do.

Kevin Mooney (57:02.818)
Yeah.

José Caballer (57:04.571)
And it's not coincidence that you're from Oregon, that you're in Bend, Oregon, because that's the frontier of the United States. I am complete. That is a long walkabout to say coming out as our true self is really ultimately the goal and not through performing steps in a process, it's actually doing the work to integrate. And that's a lot harder than just, hey, here's the seven steps to a seven degree coaching practice.

Kevin Mooney (57:10.766)
You're right.

Kevin Mooney (57:31.628)
Yeah, I mean, I don't even know how long that was and I don't care. That was exactly what I wanted to hear from you. I can't even go back and unpack a lot of the things that you said. I there's things that I want to maybe dive into a little bit, but,

You know, I, again, I think I see the, I see the system 2.0 a little bit differently now, and it makes a little bit more sense going back in my mind, looking at the conversations that are being had. And, you know, I'll just, I'll just say it. I'm a straight white man in Bend, Oregon. It's like everybody would look at me and say, well, you've got it. You've got it made.

I don't think I've ever had a problem being who I am. I just am who I am.

I think that I've got some like ego blockage in it somewhere in my head that has stopped me from doing things like this and talking about it, but it hasn't been societal pressures.

And it's kind of crazy to, I mean, you hear stories like this often, but it's crazy to hear these stories that there's people in this community that feel that pressure to this day and they need some, some coaxing of, of their true selves out of them. And I don't know. It just kind of, it kind of touches me to hear the story and to hear that these people are going through this still.

Kevin Mooney (59:18.444)
Again, still today. Because again, I don't have that problem. I just haven't literally put it out in the world. I haven't talked about it. But me in a bathtub full of kale smoking a cigar, that's just like a Tuesday night. Like, heck yeah, it sounds great.

José Caballer (59:33.233)
Which by the way, when you showed up in the community, I'm like, yeah, motherfuckers, that's what I'm talking about, Because part of it is me being able to be comfortable and validate the fact of who I am and slowly, you know, and I use the term coming out, not in the gay sense, but in the true self sense. Because think about it this way, and this will be brief and I'll let you get back to your thread and to pull it.

Kevin Mooney (59:36.398)
laughter

José Caballer (59:58.789)
If you think about it from the point of view that, know, our generation before us, TV was something that an anchor and a performer was able to do. And they had to like either fake it, right? Which is one strategy, you know? And the other strategy is method acting and become the character, right? And just spill it all out on the screen, their guts and their, you know, emotions and being dramatic. But now we live in that.

Kevin Mooney (01:00:24.366)
Sure. It works.

José Caballer (01:00:28.509)
24-7, meaning we're on Zoom all the time, frozen to death or casually natural, right? Whichever one it is. We have to create content. my God, the C-word, content. We have to get on camera. We have to do podcasts. We have to do all these things. Think about it from a point of view of psychologically, like what the world that we have entered into. There's all those videos on YouTube about how authenticity is not.

Kevin Mooney (01:00:41.646)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:00:55.973)
is overrated and you shouldn't be authentic in your videos. should just whatever. But whatever the truth is or not is, it doesn't matter. We live now in a world where the mediation of conversations is happening at such a freaking media scale. Are you ready to have your podcast go viral and become really like, you know, like get to the scale of Chris Do right?

Kevin Mooney (01:01:20.782)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know that it will. Well, that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

José Caballer (01:01:23.281)
Do you need to even, hold on, does it even matter?

That's it. Does it even matter? So, but, but you have to be comfortable with the possibility and not care. It's like, it's like, what's the sound on one hand clapping? Anyway, I'll shut the hell up.

Kevin Mooney (01:01:30.328)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:01:41.452)
No, it's great. I mean, you're touching on a lot of points. Like, I don't know that I'm ready for shit. I don't know what the hell I'm even doing. I don't know if there's anybody on the planet that wants to listen to two P guys ramble and spiral into outer space and talk about stuff. pull on the heart strings and talk about processes and, and, you know, selling and marketing and whatever all that bullshit is. But

I know that I have to do it for myself and I'm going to put it out there. And I think I want to sort of take that. I hate saying it because I look like him, I'm a bald guy. that Joe Rogan attitude of just like post and ghost. Like this isn't for anybody else. This is for me. This is for my soul. This is for the ability to talk to people, learn from people, understand how they think, how they view the world.

And if somebody else gets something out of it, then yay. Great. And if nobody else, or if nobody wants to get anything out of it and they think it's stupid, then also great. That's fine. You've got 500 million other podcasts that you can listen to. so it kind of comes back to this idea of like what my short term and long term goals are for, for doing this thing. And the short term goal, which is probably going to be a very long time is

re-sharpening the skills that I feel like I kind of lost in the last year and a half, two years. And those skills, I mean, they went away for a lot of reasons. Man, I had a terrible accident with my newborn. I fell down the stairs, she hit her head, she fractured her skull. We got life flighted up to Portland, Oregon, went to the children's hospital, had to do surgery.

She's okay. But the impact that that had on not only my mind, but my body, it turned off a lot of systems internally and

Kevin Mooney (01:03:54.914)
You know, my, my testosterone had tanked and gone really far down and that caused a lot of brain fog and uncertainty. that happened at the same time that I closed my agency down. So was like part of the happiest time in my life to exit an agency and bring a child into this world. And then you have some trauma that, that is layered on top of that.

And then you try to come back from it. And I'm just doing this solo by myself, picking up the phone to talk to a client and then going back to my computer to do strategy and then try to do some design work, which I'm really not skilled in, which I'm really not educated in. I'm just mimicking what I see in the world, things that I like, things that I believe align with the strategy that we've done. it was.

I guess that was a huge tangent. I'm way over here in outer space, but the point is like, what I'm trying to do is get back to sharpening some of those, those skills that I had that I believe that I've lost and being in an office by myself, not having seven people to talk to every day. That was one of the things I loved most about the agency was coming in and bullshitting with the team every day.

debating and arguing with and being like, that's not good creative. We need to do so whatever the hell I said. that was a huge part of my life and I don't have that anymore. So like this thing here is doing that for me. It's exactly that. And so I don't to come back to another connection point on another circle is I don't give a shit if anyone listens to this stuff. This is for me. This is for my soul and

José Caballer (01:05:30.555)
is that

Kevin Mooney (01:05:45.856)
If there are some episodes that have some really good information that I've basically gotten from you or Chris Do or Marty Neumeyer or any of those other people, the books that I've read, I'm happy to share it I want to share it. And then maybe there's an opportunity down the road somewhere in the distant future where somebody hears what I have to say and they go, gosh, I like that guy. Maybe I can hire him. And then maybe I can make some money to keep this thing going. But it's not.

Gold number one, it's not purpose number one. So that was, that's my little rant about all this.

José Caballer (01:06:23.129)
Not only do I hear it, the connection. always the kind of like, I don't know if this made any sense or if.

the judgment that we always have when we're being nonlinear. We need to end that judgment because again, there are people who know how to speak this language and who can see it. Now, is it better to have presence and to do the low slog kind of podcast where people, Ezra Klein for the New York Times, where it's like, well, tell me, know, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba.

like NPR, know, which I like it. Basically, I'm like NPR like frazzles me. And I make fun of it, but I also listen to it when I'm in the States. Well, not anymore because it's probably going to go away. But or as Cartman said, know, lesbians and Jews on the radio talk complaining. The the that that the thing you said about podcasts, you know, about, you know, doesn't matter.

Kevin Mooney (01:07:11.416)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:07:37.561)
You know, you don't give a shit if anybody listens or, you know, like even the comfort of saying a few bad words in the whole process versus like, my God, don't that. Here's the reality. Yes, nobody's listening to this one to what this is. I'll tell it to you in a story. My first year, you know, in 2014, my first burn, I I was somebody told me the secret is to go build. So I showed up really early, you know, eager beaver with

everything, including knee pads. Don't ask what those are for, but to build is to build stuff, to build stuff, right? You're really building. And I got there on a Tuesday, Thursday night, all the builders, now friends and comrades, you know, go out and go out, you know, drinking, you know, to Spanky's wine bar, where you do

Kevin Mooney (01:08:10.606)
You

José Caballer (01:08:35.185)
Fire enemas, don't ask, it's a thing. But the, well, anyway, I went deep, deep, deep into the Playa and for whatever I took, whatever it might be, and I think it was just alcohol, getting back, because remember, it's my first time, I don't remember where my camp is, I got to get back at four o'clock in the morning or three o'clock in the morning and find my people that I had left with.

Kevin Mooney (01:08:52.44)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:08:59.022)
boy.

José Caballer (01:09:05.339)
And I can only do it by retracing like memento where I had been on the way there and the way out because everybody's so friendly. You're stopping at every place that draws your attention. It's like, and they got something for you. They got an experience to give you and they're very, they're so friendly. You're like, my God, this is amazing. Where am I? Especially for obnoxious people. So it took me a while to get back.

Kevin Mooney (01:09:11.352)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:09:16.6)
Yeah, they got something for you.

José Caballer (01:09:32.381)
And scene by scene, I was like, my God, like, okay. And finally, I actually, there's a tiki bar, a tiki bar, a bar, which is tropical in theme. And it's actually a carriage, like on wheels. And I walked in and my whole crew was there. And they're like, where have you been? We lost you somewhere in the whole thing. And I totally forgot the point of that story. yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:09:54.659)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:10:02.237)
that you make your way back, right? We have these conversations that might be, so you're stopping in in every single one of these places. Like part of it was, since I didn't know the streets or anything, I was just walking through camps and I'm walking through a tent, some kids from East LA, like, they're like, oh, what's up, homie? And I'm like, all right, okay. And he's like, yeah, grab a seat. All right, grab a seat here, we got to sit. And I spent 20 minutes chatting in Spanish with them. I'm like, all right, thanks. You know, you keep, and you go back out and you keep on walking, right? It's like,

Kevin Mooney (01:10:14.077)
Hahaha

José Caballer (01:10:33.004)
You literally learn the art of conversing and, and, well, I happen to be able to do that. Not everybody, but most people. I'm not like most people, but that whole experience taught me what being on different podcasts, right? Is you're just basic. I'm showing up to Kevin Mooney's camp and we're to talk about something and cool. And some people will show up and some people won't. And then the next one that is.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:50.446)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:10:55.191)
Yeah, yeah.

José Caballer (01:11:01.649)
That in itself, what podcasts are able to do on any topic, that whole ecosystem. Here's a question. Does it matter if there's too many podcasts?

No, because it's just about what resonates with who and having real conversations. And if it's real and if somebody relates to it, then they'll show up. then, like you said it well, I don't have to repeat how you said it, but that story of kind of traversing all these different cultures, it is humanity and is the thing that heals.

Kevin Mooney (01:11:12.61)
No, I don't think so.

Kevin Mooney (01:11:24.803)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:11:43.165)
this bifocation via labels that both the algorithm, that branding does, because branding was about control of mind share, right? Of your thoughts and feelings about a particular thing, beauty or home or a particular food or whatever.

Now you extrapolate to the digital era, you extrapolate to Instagram, you extrapolate. We live in one of the most violent times for your mind in history because everything has metastasized, is the best word, into some sort of like, and the thing that almost like,

Kevin Mooney (01:12:24.59)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:12:41.403)
I feel like Saul, becoming Paul in the way to Damascus, I'm not regretful to have shown Chris Do brand strategy and to show creatives, which core is basically, it's basically brand-driven user experience with business goals. That simple. I don't care about all the other things and even positioning and all the whole shebang. If I can know those three things, I can probably do a website for somebody or do a...

identity for somebody. course, there's deeper layers that you can go into. But somebody from Oregon just emailed me the other day when I sent out our newsletter saying, oh, my God, I just used it after 15 years again. it still works. Yeah. The point I'm trying to make is this. Here we are in 2025. And everyone's a designer. Everyone's launching a new brand, a personal brand. Like, there isn't

Kevin Mooney (01:13:25.55)
It's still magic.

José Caballer (01:13:39.861)
You can't swing a dead cat without hitting some asshole with a personal brand because we're all now media people. We're all now entities. We're all now the business and the model and the business model and monetizing attention, right? Because that's the thing. So, so holy shit, that's not a recipe for losing your soul because if before we were going to lose our soul to Madison Avenue, you know, now we're going to lose our soul to the algorithm. Our job.

Kevin Mooney (01:13:43.182)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Mooney (01:14:07.992)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:14:09.627)
your job as a disruptor, as like your human design as itself, you know, is to really literally like help people transition and bridge to this next phase in a way that...

Your story, like the burnout, the agency world starting over again, exactly what we're talking about here now, is not just your story. It's actually my story too. It's actually, you know, it's such a, like, let's say we stick this conversation into an AI transcriber and we extract an organized structure of what it is that we talked about, and then we compare it to

Kevin Mooney (01:14:36.782)
Sure. Yeah.

José Caballer (01:14:55.355)
the conversations that we're having in our circles and with some of other people, we all have such similar stories. We are all starting to have the same white hairs. We're all making the transition into the age of wisdom. But we also have this concern, whether it's for our children or for the future, that man.

Kevin Mooney (01:15:02.754)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:15:18.023)
What is the world that we're designing? What is the life that we want to design? Because ultimately,

you know, think globally, act locally. It's only our lives that we can design and take accountability for and personal responsibility for. And the thing that I suffered from that I want to make sure that in this new age, other people don't fall in the same thing is that I tried to be authentic in my expression of who I am online. And what you call me not

going for the fame or for the other things was, and other people have said the same thing in the community, was really like my questioning of can I be vulnerable and authentic in myself?

so widely, you know, and still kind of hold together like, you know, my own container, right? Whatever that means. the thing being that if we decide to play a character to allow us then to end scene and go have our life with our kids and with our family and with our private life and then get on stage, you know, in the camera and play a character.

Kevin Mooney (01:16:24.589)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:16:45.425)
That's great. But if we're obnoxious something, or if we're like, you know, this person that requires to go to work and chat and like just be real, be real with people, really connect and really have this conversation, we have to create the spaces for where that is possible. And that's it, you know, that's what we're doing here. That's what you're doing. So the fact that you're doing it for me holds a space that I don't feel judged and I feel comfortable.

Kevin Mooney (01:17:01.261)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:17:15.101)
And it's basically where it's a resonance and a co-created space that whether or not you understood exactly what the system and what the community was all about, you could feel it. And probably because of the people who invited you into it, like Heather Crank and Matt, you know, all these people. Because notice, again, Oregon, I spent a lot of time in Oregon while I was starting the school. The first financing for the school came from Oregon.

Kevin Mooney (01:17:32.174)
Sure, of course. Yeah.

José Caballer (01:17:44.526)
some of the bigger big companies and exits from designers who became founders happened in Oregon. It's not coincidental.

Kevin Mooney (01:17:54.006)
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I mean, it's it's so.

I've gone through all of those phases and what you were just talking about. I've had my own existential crises. My brain went to this weird space in the last six months. If the Earth is 52 million miles away from the sun and we're in the Goldilocks zone, and that's precisely how far you have to be away from the sun in order to have life exist.

whether it's trees or plants or humans or whatever, but the universe is expanding and we're going somewhere and we're not going to be here anymore than, than what does any of this mean? Why are we doing this? Why do I care about brand? Why do I give a shit about making this really amazing identity for this client so that they can turn and sell whatever the hell they're selling? Like it didn't make any sense to me and I couldn't reconcile it.

And I knew that I had to get back to work and the personal brand was the buzzword. It still is kind of the buzzword. And I'm like, well, I guess I can go in that direction, but in true fashion to myself, I'm not going to do it the same way that everybody else does it. And so now I'm still in that space of like, well, now what do I do? What is the content that I put out this stupid C word? Um, I don't know. I can't figure out a plan.

Do I need a, a dorky person to tell me what that plan should be? Yeah, probably. But at the same time, I probably not going to follow that plan because I'm just wired that way. And, I know. It's just kind of a long way of, of tying into the things that you're talking about. I don't know, but I do know that it's good for my soul to talk. I'm talking and, and yeah, I don't know.

Kevin Mooney (01:19:58.252)
my short-winded response to what you have to say.

José Caballer (01:20:00.82)
Water, your water, know, Pisces, right? Like it's flow, like you feel it when it's there. You're highly sensitive, you know, to people's energy and intuition and, you know, even to the health, you know, so, A, you have to protect yourself, which you've been doing, you know, that 2004 that you took off. The rest and the needs, you know,

that so here the key summary from your energy centers from your human design, you have a strong voice and an emotional authority. So you can say it with feeling and meaning, but then you also have a deep pressure to act, but you don't have any sacral energy. What that means is you have to pace yourself, right? I am a sacral authority. So because I'm a generator, 70 % of people are generators and this is the worker beats, but I'm a manifesting generator, which

Kevin Mooney (01:20:56.92)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:20:57.969)
which has a problem, is like, if you put it on paper and the definition of that relative to human design, and you put ADHD on paper next to each other, there basically is a recipe for like, woo, going this way, going this way, responding to whatever's around, which is not great to focus in this world, especially when you're in a computer world and you have Pinterest and YouTube and all this stuff. So I have to really anchor myself with index cards and like with...

Kevin Mooney (01:21:11.704)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:21:27.671)
here's exactly what I'm doing right now and keep on going back to it. And one of the reasons why I like tarot so much, I respond. you know, I have never done a reading that isn't exactly on point. I have never done a reading that isn't exactly on point now. So, you know, for Christian friends, for our skeptical friends who are going to say, you know, holy, what are you talking about? That's, you know, whatever divination. Here's the thing.

We live in an energy field and it's a quantum energy field, right? So everything is happening all at once, right? If you look at my LinkedIn, it says everything is connected. You know, look, okay, that's not the best, you know, clear, like, what do you do? What do you sell? What's your brother's proposition? What's your decision? So the reason I'm saying that is that because you pull out meaning, you ascribe meaning to things.

Kevin Mooney (01:22:12.632)
Sure.

José Caballer (01:22:26.459)
I love what you said about, you know.

every single second of your life, now it's about providing two things. One is presence, to being there, and to getting rid of all the symbols. Because if you think of logos, I just got a notification from Circle, it's a little C, right? To design a good logo for a modern application, you want to make sure that it's super recognizable and people know, that's Circle.

And there's, if you look at religions, faiths, cultures, symbols become the thing that takes the idea forward in the heart and ingrains it. The reason why I don't like using the word brand is because inherently the word brand comes from,

Thank you, Marty Neumeyer. Thank you for all those people early. You know, a cow being branded by the owner with fire in a thing. It's like, that's a little bit violent. You know, it's like, I don't want to brand. But if you go from the inside out, which is then becomes the energy of, you know, of your essence of the elemental nature of who you are through presence.

Kevin Mooney (01:23:33.142)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Kevin Mooney (01:23:38.52)
Sure.

Yeah.

José Caballer (01:23:57.649)
then what starts happening on the exterior is congruent with what's happening on the interior and the reality that you want to create or the things that you're gravitating towards or you want to bring towards your field begin to gather, right? So it's kind of like assembling the reality around you via that kind of definition, which starts with words. So like brand attributes, you know,

and we call them core attributes now. And it's define your essence statement in my core, which then kind of are just basically, it doesn't have to be exactly what you are in your positioning, but the words create the energy field that begin to coalesce it. So the challenge, you asked it at the beginning and I want to bring it up again. And I have a fucking crazy answer to this.

Kevin Mooney (01:24:53.358)
You

José Caballer (01:24:55.345)
then how do we get to the goals, to the objectives, make money, live well from being ourselves? And the answer is...

It's in the feto. It's like if you have a collective, a group of people that have those strengths, who are conscious of what the other people are, and that my job isn't to do it for you because, you know, it's all about personal accountability. I take care of myself. You take care of yourself, et cetera. But it's to recognize the other person and say, hey, I can offer you, you know, support in accomplishing your goals.

by helping you be accountable. And it might not even be a person that is, know, the opposite, it might be, you know, you get stuff done, you have that energy to get things done. But by being with others like-minded who believe in what you're doing and are holding that kind of space for you, that's why it's called the space station, the system space station, suddenly you believe sufficiently to keep on going on the journey and those things start to happen.

Kevin Mooney (01:25:56.578)
Mm-hmm

José Caballer (01:26:05.989)
And you start to do that podcast and write your book and that client starts coming and those things start happening. And you're like, wait, what the heck just happening? And it was simply the collective conscious unified around the belief of what it is that we're creating. So the continual alignment, what we're doing right now in the community of putting the attributes together, it's basically coalescing to what we all need in order to

to get the things that, is that even, because desire then becomes irrelevant. If we look at the objective, like, you know, I wanna get this or I wanna have this, possess, you know, own, et cetera, from an energetic standpoint, you don't really want, you know, the seven figures, yes, you know, whatever it is, but it's so that you can have, you know, a good home for your family so that you can have time.

Kevin Mooney (01:26:41.144)
Sure, yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:27:04.759)
Great.

José Caballer (01:27:05.519)
and freedom, nobody's doing anything to have the objects and the symbols. I mean, some people are. But if you're really authentically creating wealth and abundance is ultimately about being able to create the space and what you want to do. And the reality is that we all have that already. The only difference is that the system that we were in part of before, like, let's say, the agency world or

Kevin Mooney (01:27:10.158)
Yeah, some people are, right?

José Caballer (01:27:35.249)
jobs or all these things. Those systems have always been and for no fault of ours or of the world's basically extractive and colonial. Period. Period. Employment is colonial. You have an agency, yes sir, yes sir, and having to sell and be like this kind of thing. It's a performative kind of thing to what ends. The reason I close my agency is because

Kevin Mooney (01:27:47.128)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:27:52.75)
Uh-huh.

José Caballer (01:28:02.651)
I don't even own this stuff I'm doing. I'm getting paid to help you build something for yourself that I'm not going to have ownership in it. You know what? Let me go build something myself with my design talent or with my creativity or with my time. then coincidentally, all that world is ending right now because of AI and because of where we are. And one of the things that I talked about very early on in the community in System 1.0 was Alvin Toffer's book,

Kevin Mooney (01:28:11.295)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:28:31.613)
you know, future shock, which is, look, in the future, the business of the future is personal development. And I kept on repeating that over and over and over and over again. And when you had Gen Xers who would be like, ah, you can't be a 24 year old, you know, spiritual coach on TikTok. And I'm like, watch them do it because because you can. And that's because that person depended on a model where being validated was a university or the church or

Kevin Mooney (01:28:50.752)
Right.

José Caballer (01:29:01.851)
like, you know, certifications and that is you just got to do it. And if people believe you and you sell them and you give them value, you get paid. No certifications needed. Doesn't matter. And the shame that we carry from the past to the future, myself, I'm talking about myself, about the value that who we are is the value. Our essence is the value. Being true to ourselves is the value. Kevin Mooney in a bathtub smoking a cigar, cursing and having that podcast is the value.

Kevin Mooney (01:29:08.546)
You get paid, Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:29:29.428)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:29:31.345)
There is no, the minute we start to abstract that and say, can I give that is the value of the value proposition? Fuck that. It's your essence. So my core is basically from the inside out because your essence is the value where before you were creating a shell, the identity, the things, you know, like this for a company. And the question, some companies carry their essence outward, but some companies just want to do some,

Kevin Mooney (01:29:39.039)
Right.

José Caballer (01:29:59.985)
dude or person or corporate, especially corporations where the disconnection between the actual intention is no longer there because they're publicly held company and all they gotta do is keep on making money. So the authenticity of a brand becomes more and more difficult as you abstract the model more and more. But now that it's like you're the model and you're the business and you're the thing, that now allows us to.

Kevin Mooney (01:30:00.323)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:30:28.637)
do it from the inside out. And the next stage or the next step for the system or for the idea is super simple. When you go build a brand for a company, let's say a corporation, or let's say you're in a small company, instead of going in and creating the container that is the brand by facilitating it, which Core does for between all the people and defining it, no, no, no. You start with each individual being defined with their core and the makeup of the collective.

The makeup of each individual's core essence is what ends up making up the thing, the company. So the last thing I'll say is this. When people start saying, community is the next brand, community is the next brand, it is because it's true if you think about it from that point of view and from...

point of view of decentralization and what's coming down the pipe in terms of monetary systems. And I will shut up.

Kevin Mooney (01:31:32.888)
Holy shit, José, you just keep blowing my mind.

José Caballer (01:31:40.071)
We're at an hour and a half, we're both tired. So yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:31:42.21)
Yeah, yeah, I do want to just maybe say something or ask another question. I don't know if I can flush it out because you said so much. Unless you unless you've got to go, I'll let you out of here right now.

José Caballer (01:31:54.749)
I do not have to go. This is very pleasurable and I'm getting over the judgment of sounding like a madman.

Kevin Mooney (01:32:04.838)
You're not at all. I mean, everything that you said, everything you said is right, in my opinion.

Kevin Mooney (01:32:16.684)
The inside out thing is really cool. The idea of...

I'll try to dumb this down or maybe I'm just dumb the way I communicate sometimes. I think that it's really hard to core and strategy kind of as it is the idea of breaking that down to each person in the collective and allowing that to form the brand, right? Let's say we're talking about this in the agency box right now. That seems basically impossible.

at this point in time. But what does sound really interesting is the community aspect of it. And I'm trying to search for a way in my brain to make sense of that.

Somehow, let's say I build a community and I get 15 people in there. That's all I've got. And those 15 people were running core on it.

Kevin Mooney (01:33:25.632)
Isn't it? this, thoughts are super disconnected. Wasn't the attractant me in the first place to get those people in that community? And then how do we take that and transition it to the community itself and let it build its own brand? Cause I mean, that's kind of what you you're doing right now. The system is, is José and. And now it's not the it's now it's not José. Now it is the community and you're defining.

the voice as the community and then it's going to essentially rebrand itself somewhere down the line. It's going to become that entity. I think that's really cool. I don't understand quite how to monetize that thing. Even if it doesn't need to be monetized, I don't know what the purpose of that becomes. And maybe it's cause I haven't seen an example like that in real life happen. so these are just all my disconnected thoughts of what you just said, which I think is really cool because when I go into

any engagement, whether I'm building a website, whether I'm doing a marketing campaign, whether I'm doing advertising or I'm hired for a visual identity, I do brand strategy. And it is core my way, right? But it is focused on the three main characteristics of it, brand, customers, and goals, right? That's the crux of it all. But the point is that

I sell it individually. I package it in a service because I've found that, you know, I got to keep the lights on, right? I got to sell something to keep the lights on. So I'll sell a website and I'm going to do brand strategy. That gives me what I need to do the job. It makes them feel like they were very engaged. How could you possibly do that with somebody and their entire team, meaning you're going to define each and every one of their

their cores and then say this is the catalyst to your your brand now like that seems. It seems fucking bananas to me, but I like the idea. I think it's super unique.

José Caballer (01:35:36.157)
It's less unique than you think. already exists and we're looking at it in front of us. if you're coin telegraph, which I have as one of the tabs or one of the things on my, and you look at the entire, forget about the stock market, the traditional stock market, let's just look at the crypto side. So I'm going to give you a very concrete answer to

Kevin Mooney (01:35:39.406)
son of a bitch

José Caballer (01:36:05.757)
how those things exist from three places. One is my two years, three years at ConsenSys, which I saw from early stage when Ethereum was at $80 to when it now is at $3,500 or something like that. And that where the founder was basically, the model was that they would give 500 bucks, half a million dollars to a few kids who had an idea, right? It's an accelerator. The person who brought me there,

actually was one of the first members, one of the first people to come to Core to group school and do one of those training sessions like 15 years ago. And then he, and this person also happens to be my coach today. He's an investor and he's 35. He's retired. He's figuring out what to do. He's coaching. So he's coaching me, right? And then every time we do a session, we do it every two weeks.

It's like another unlock for me because you have to keep growing. That's one of the big things. But so consensus showed me the way the process and I'm looking at it going like, my God, this is insane because the inherent value of the ecosystem is encapsulated in the Ethereum price. So by developing the ecosystem, know, MetaMask, which is a wallet.

place is a decentralized network of computers that are being united by a protocol. So the protocol layer, think of it as like one of those 80s grids, know, those blue cool grids on an LED screen, right, which represents all the interconnections between all the things. The name of the freaking, you know, token is ether, right, which in manifestation in the four elements.

Kevin Mooney (01:38:14.744)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:38:30.737)
you know, the ether is the one above, right? So it's ether, fire, earth, water, and air, right? So, and it's a spiritual layer. If you even see the logo, what it represents, two triangles opposed to each other. You know, every single thing is telling you exactly what it is as it relates to the broader kind of spiritual metaphors in the context of reality. It's nuts, right? So the reason why I'm saying that that's what's...

Kevin Mooney (01:38:52.11)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:38:59.483)
what one thing right that that is doing that. And then if you look at the structure or the idea behind Dows, right. So if you look at an artist individually who can then create a token for their art and then create a community and bring people in. then if I'm already getting big on on on Spotify, right, because I've made good quality work and I won some awards and now my community gets access to me.

behind the scenes, release albums, et cetera. All they have to do is participate in the token. the more people that participate, the value goes up. Now I go and borrow against the $18 million valuation of my token as an artist. And I buy two houses in Portland, Oregon. That's a real person. That's a real thing, right? Who's an artist. Are they like Kanye? No, but they have enough.

Kevin Mooney (01:39:51.245)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:39:57.167)
Spotify listens and have people that their community is big enough, right? So that's tokenization of the community. So, well, that's tokenization of an artist. Then there are DAOs, which are tokenized. A token is very easy to generate on the Ethereum blockchain, right? And then a group of friends, usually people that hold a lot of assets in either, you know, real world or crypto. And then they work together to

provide liquidity for the particular token so that they can fund different projects, whatever the projects might be. One of the projects might be we need to design the identity for our community or we need to finance this artist because we believe in them, et cetera. And you suddenly go like, okay, cool, that's what they're doing. But then other people get excited and they come in into the community. And the original people that started will start giving others the token, right? Just sharing it and spreading it because they have some.

The inherent value of it is no different than what does a stock, you know, if the company is making revenue and mainly if there's buzz because the ratio of like revenue to valuation for like a company like Tesla is super disjointed. That's all hype. You know, when the dude wears a Doge t-shirt and names a department Doge,

Kevin Mooney (01:41:07.395)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:41:19.202)
Right.

José Caballer (01:41:26.001)
He is being the ultimate embodiment of the thing that provides value in today's economy, which is attention, because there is a Dogecoin, which was a meme coin, which was started by a bunch of dudes from Vancouver who would have a decentralized dance party. And they're just totally like nuts and who hosted like a talk at Burning Man, you know, that I spoke at one year and, know.

Those guys, they were just being assholes basically. And the token has a huge amount of what was issued, even though it's a very low price, the fluctuation, there's people that are riding that puppy and making money playing crazy games like chicken. They're just pumping and dumping, pumping and dumping, which has a bad name because if it isn't inside the regular system, Wall Street,

which is the same thing. know, who gets who gets more money out of a company going public? You know, the people who the people who do the initial public offering, the banks who you go on a road show and Deutsche Bank and this bank and that bank, they're the first to get in right at a a at at a nice share price for them because they're believing in your thing. And keep in mind, you're running a company that's making money. So it's not like it isn't right. Or it's a real thing, quote unquote.

Kevin Mooney (01:42:31.022)
Great.

Kevin Mooney (01:42:42.114)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:42:54.471)
But those guys usually get out first or are able to benefit from it for the most part.

The stock market is a game, even though it's working on real world assets, it's no different than if you look at the crypto markets and DAOs, which are trying to accomplish real things. Okay, now you actually extrapolate that into your question of like, how do you make money in general? And the challenge is that it's not about the hype. Kevin Mooney is an artist, José Caballero is an artist, you know, the people that I was just reading, you know, they're my core.

Kevin Mooney (01:43:22.776)
Mm-hmm.

José Caballer (01:43:33.959)
And the reason why I'm saying that you get it from the inward outward, and then that creates the brand. It's because if we're all now in the future, individual creators, like artists, artisans, the future village, your thing might not be cheeses and meats. Like if we're in the Renaissance fair, your thing might be like, know, Kevin Moonie's thing is like.

Kevin Mooney (01:43:54.894)
Great.

José Caballer (01:44:00.827)
whatever you come up with that is what people get from you. It could just be a specific vibe and what you're selling is the system of how to do it the Kevin Mooney way. That makes absolutely no sense. But if you look at creators today, that's what's happening. Like everybody's doing the same thing. So then the people look at it from the outside and you're like, wait a minute, what? So then I joined a community. I learned the system from one person and then I go start my own community and

Kevin Mooney (01:44:11.0)
Yeah.

Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:44:18.509)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:44:30.429)
teach other people how to do the system in same way. So wait, are we all just gonna be personal development coaches in the future? Teaching each other how to give value to the tokens?

Kevin Mooney (01:44:38.264)
Great.

Kevin Mooney (01:44:43.384)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:44:45.723)
What did the person that now runs the United States do right after, actually two weeks before starting their job? They launched a.

Kevin Mooney (01:44:58.99)
that thing. A token. That's what it is. I don't know the words. The coin thing. Yeah.

José Caballer (01:45:00.111)
A token, they launched a token. They launched a mean coin for themselves and then one for their wife. And then, you know, their kids launched, you know, whole like thing so that foreign governments could easily like, you know, participate in influencing without, you know, without it being illegal. Right. What did that person have? And that person's a Gemini and their gift is attention. Right. They speak, they throw things out and they run the press stories.

Kevin Mooney (01:45:16.844)
Yeah, that's crazy.

Kevin Mooney (01:45:24.824)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:45:29.597)
That's the currency of that person. Is it good or is it bad? It's, man, I mean, like, I don't even want to ask that question because it pains me because that's why we're doom scrolling and we're like, oh my God, the end of the American experiment. But the reality is that we are now entering a time when the value of who we are and what we do is no longer tied to our output, you know, in an industrial kind of way.

Kevin Mooney (01:45:34.744)
Sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:45:40.781)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:45:59.153)
you know, in terms of jobs or manufacturing, et cetera. And it's never going to come back. So we are creatives. You know, we know how to like deal with ideas and concepts and materialize those things into reality. And now the economy is just all ideas. And then it gets translated into physical things through the primary, you know, kind of system that we agree on.

Kevin Mooney (01:46:12.396)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:46:20.237)
For sure.

José Caballer (01:46:28.391)
which in the case scenario of the American century has been the dollarized economy. But man, if you're down here in Latin America where I'm at and you're getting to look at what's actually happening and you're seeing and reading what's happening and what's, I don't know whether the people that are enacting it are complicit or not. I know that the Silicon Valley guys are pretty clear on what they're doing.

And it's basically taking control away from what has been the American experiment. The dollar was king simply because we have a lot of military bases and we're America. We defended Europe in World War II, right? We have a big army. We have a big stick, right? Once that's over, once that the people are like, wait, that's not true anymore. The global south, is, know,

Kevin Mooney (01:47:03.746)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:47:08.728)
Sure, right, huh.

José Caballer (01:47:26.583)
Africa, et cetera, begin to flourish for a couple of reasons. One, because there's still a lot of development to be done, economic, infrastructure. There's still growth. It's a young population. And then second, because notice what El Salvador is doing, notice what Argentina is beginning to follow with, et cetera, everybody's starting to tokenize.

So they're starting to flip. And the people here, all the crypto people who already got wealthy and left and they went to Puerto Rico, or they're here in Latin America, all the things that are happening inside that space are basically the people that know what's coming next, which is really when it all flips out of the dollar into a global digital currency. I know that sounds conspiratorial and it sounds like

Kevin Mooney (01:47:56.142)
Ooh.

Kevin Mooney (01:48:22.508)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:48:24.753)
We're on the wrong podcast, but that my friend, that my friend is what I learned in my three years in the blockchain space. That's what the, that's the plan.

Kevin Mooney (01:48:26.507)
No, man.

Kevin Mooney (01:48:32.734)
That's fucking wild. I don't know.

the majority of what you just said. don't know anything about it and I don't, I haven't followed it. Like I know a buddy, you know, bought a Bitcoin 10 years ago or some shit like that. I don't know. Probably sold it or spend it on pizzas like that. One guy that was on like Instagram or something. The point is I don't know anything about it. I've, I've, I'm not against it or

I don't have like an adverse reaction to the idea of cryptocurrency. I just have been like head down. How do I sell brand strategy to these people? So I've had this type of a view on things that I, I'm kind of blown away by what you just said. Like the whole idea. I, I get a lot of it. I don't get a lot of it. I'm loosely following it. It's, we can have another entire show.

on that and I would love to talk more about it because I just don't get it. I don't know, you're light years ahead of me in this conversation and maybe I need to kind of bang my head against the wall and wake up a little bit to that idea.

because I just, yeah, I don't know anything about it. I'm kind of blown away right now, just shocked.

José Caballer (01:50:07.229)
It's for me as a personal journey, the interconnection between the awakening to the understanding, one. Second, the emotional kind of like, you know, work that has to happen to go from, you know, I'm selling brand strategy, I'm selling my time as my value, I'm doing this thing, to understanding that at the end, you know,

who I am, know, elementally, the power of this one individual within, you know, the grid, the, dude, watch The Matrix, right? You know, and watch it again with this conversation in mind. Like, we go from powering The Matrix as energy, from our labor, from our time, from our hustling, right? To knowing that we can actually control because we're creators.

And by creators of it, we mean creators of our own reality. that I'll kind of like bring us home with it being super personal. For me at 52, this transition, I basically did this. Like I went from like surrendering to this journey, to launching, know, to what I did with the school and then taking what...

Kevin Mooney (01:51:07.544)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:51:35.409)
what was happening and what revenue was being generated from it and exploring the edges of that kind of, oops, I'm doing this over here and I'm doing that off screen. Basically going like this, like this, like this. And now to go back up with the fidelity of knowing that for me as a, I'm gonna share it with you because it goes into my human design and understanding that I have these sheets, I'll send you yours.

Kevin Mooney (01:51:44.878)
You're fine.

José Caballer (01:52:05.597)
where I do a navigation sheet with a few things that we just pulled. So my life's purpose is to spread consciousness like wildfire. Your life is an energetic field that activates others, not through teaching, but through embodying your truth. So that's the other thing that made me like, what? my God, I don't have to teach. I just have to say crazy things. Your design says express yourself creatively and honestly. Share with no filter, others will awaken.

Kevin Mooney (01:52:27.202)
Yeah, hell yeah.

José Caballer (01:52:34.833)
You're a human ignition switch, a spark that sets others ablaze, but only once you fully own your own flame. Meaning, know, unmute yourself. You know, I can't be like sitting there going like, I'm saying I'm a mad man. I'm judging myself. I need to get in a tub with a cigar and like, just say, screw it. You need to understand things deeply before you feel ready. So this whole journey that I've been on, it's been about me and just feeling it all. You're an architect.

your strong foundations matter. And you learn through experimentation, which is my profile. I'm a martyr experimenter. Don't ask what that means. It means that. You have to understand things deeply. You learn through experimentations. And the most important part is you don't need to be perfect to share. Share your process. That's what inspires. Your messiness when spoken with clarity becomes mastery. You're a builder of new worlds. Your superpower is seeing the future.

Kevin Mooney (01:53:14.414)
Yeah, I get it.

José Caballer (01:53:31.921)
feeling it in your body and shaping it fast. But you're not here to do everything. You're here to do what lights you the fuck up. I didn't write this. And there's no fire. If there is no fire, the engine stalls. But when the fire is there, you're unstoppable. You don't execute. You redesign systems as you build them. So the whole point, the experiment that we're doing right now, when I'm just giving it to others,

and we're doing it collectively is me acknowledging my human design and surrendering to that, that I'm not here to build it. The system is going to build itself. You're going to build it. Everybody else is going to build it. And it's not building the system. It's just building you, right? The Kevin Mooney value. Because then we can encapsulate that value into whatever that might be. The token, keep in mind, so that you understand the concept.

Kevin Mooney (01:54:09.677)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:54:17.89)
Right.

José Caballer (01:54:28.783)
It's simply a container. It's a smart contract with the definition of what it is. Kevin Mooney token, there's a million tokens. They're worth 10 cents. Who said that worth? You made it up. And then you have stock certificates. They're worth nothing because there isn't anything there. But then collectively, for example, if I look at the dashboard for the system, you have 146 points and you're a captain because you have 70 comments, because you participated.

Kevin Mooney (01:54:31.042)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:54:41.026)
Right.

José Caballer (01:54:57.979)
You did the drop the what do call it? The 30 day drop in challenge, et cetera. Right. So now imagine if Kevin Mooney, not only the profile was also encapsulated into a token and I am not saying crazy things. I'm actually describing an actual platform that I saw some kids build. Where each individual person was part of a social network and each individual person had.

Kevin Mooney (01:55:01.762)
Drop in post. Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:55:19.832)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:55:27.079)
tokenized points relative to their behavior on the platform, which were worth something as you created more and more. And I know that sounds insanity, but it's no different than stock market.

Kevin Mooney (01:55:38.87)
No, it's not super crazy. It's a little bit. I mean, it's hard to wrap your head around when you have lived in the traditional model for so long, right? It's just outside your purview, right? You can't really grasp it, but I do understand it. I don't fully understand it, but I do understand it. that is wild.

José Caballer (01:56:05.533)
All you have to think of it is this way, because Oregon, Portland pioneered all this stuff. If you were to draw and go print a Kevin Mooney coin, sorry, bill like the Americans did back in the Confederacy or whatever it was, the greenback, right? And it said Kevin Mooney in exchange for one unit of value for blah, blah. And you started paying all your friends

Kevin Mooney (01:56:12.439)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:56:23.661)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:56:34.981)
with it, right? First of all, they would think you're crazy. But if you all own land and if you all had like, you know, food and things that you were creating, and eventually, you know, it's like, hey, you know what, for these 10 Kevin Mooney bills, let me have, you know, some carrots and some squash and some, you know, whatever, tomatoes. Great. Okay, thanks. Now you're suddenly exchanging them.

Kevin Mooney (01:56:37.976)
you

José Caballer (01:57:02.535)
for something that you can cook and eat and live, right? It's the same construct, right? It's the same exact construct that the long-term understanding is, or the long-term is sovereignty and empowering ourselves to understand that we are worthy of having our value be under our own kind of like purview versus giving it away and giving it away and giving it away.

Kevin Mooney (01:57:28.046)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:57:32.509)
And with that, I am complete. We can't give away our value. And our value is not what we think it is. It's not doing stuff for people. Our value is just being ourselves as powerfully as possible. And that is only possible in 2025 in this stage of development, in this media environment where the signal is the most important thing.

Kevin Mooney (01:57:37.763)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:58:02.161)
that we can share with other people. And the signal is our own unique expression, who we really are. It sounds insane because the system out there tells you that you're worthy because you have a job and because you have drive this type of car, symbol, though the car does get you somewhere. And because you have this type of house, symbol, and because you wear this type of clothes with these brands, symbol.

Kevin Mooney (01:58:20.749)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:58:31.569)
the brands and symbols that have been created by the system to justify oppressing us. We as designers have, and brand strategists have been creating the fabric of our own oppression. We have been creating the trap. And I don't know how to tell people this, you know, because now that the core kit is not on the future anymore, now I feel great because, you know, I'm re-platforming it on our own platform.

Kevin Mooney (01:58:44.258)
Right. Right.

José Caballer (01:58:59.685)
And now I can openly say it's like, stop, stop doing it. Stop doing that thing that's creating the oppression unless we're doing it for our own things. If you're in the core circle, what we're talking about is how to do our own projects, how to finance our projects, how to build our own world. And the people that are in the core circle are already doing that in their lives. you guys in Oregon, you guys got the way to do it? There's land up there.

Kevin Mooney (01:59:03.701)
Yeah.

Kevin Mooney (01:59:09.463)
Right.

Kevin Mooney (01:59:14.754)
Yeah.

José Caballer (01:59:27.361)
You you guys got a bunch of hippies up there. Yeah. But what I like about Oregon is that it's not just like, you know, California hippies, which is fashion. In Oregon, you got to survive in the cold.

Kevin Mooney (01:59:27.416)
Sure.

There's plenty of hippies, for sure.

Kevin Mooney (01:59:41.226)
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's that's a whole different conversation. But yeah, there's the hippie group is is very interesting. That's that whole like state of Jefferson type of thing. There's like a rebel mentality in that in that hippie. So they're a different group. But gosh, José, this has been so good, man. You said you were complete. I want to I want to leave it with that because I know that's kind of the sign off there.

José Caballer (02:00:01.789)
Alright.

José Caballer (02:00:09.341)
But no, listen, I just don't want to like, you we could talk for the next five hours and can, but I also, know, it's seven o'clock here. So I want to be mindful. Let's do it again.

Kevin Mooney (02:00:13.272)
Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. Well, let's do it again. I really appreciate it, man. Thank you for doing this.

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